# Barry Bonds is going down. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437 "2006-03-07T22:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/161 "2006-03-13T19:58:52Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Come now, don’t move the goal posts when the kick is in the air. Which goal posts? > [@Omniscient](#): > > Are you seriously making the argument that there’s a performance enhancing surgery? How about Lasik? > [@Omniscient](#): > > Give me a break. The only thing that’s even close is the Tommy John surgery, and there’s no evidence that it improves performace. For every guy who came back stronger there’s 10 who were never the same, and most people accredit the improvements following the surgery to maturity (they are always 2 years older and more experienced), strengthened muscles due to physical therapy and most critically restructured mechanics taught by professionals instead of high school coaches and untrained fathers. Maybe. But performance enhancing surgery isn’t too far into the future if it isn’t already here. Is this “cheating”? > [@Omniscient](#): > > As to why there’s more vigor over steroids compared to amphetimines or anything else, well it’s because steroids effect is so obvious and persistent. Greenies have an effect of one game, steroids last entire careers. Greenies have a very intangible impact, the logic being that it helps focus and mental fatigue. There’s little evidence of a direct correlation between performance and use. That doesn’t excuse them, but it’s why the pubic is more angry about steroids. Steroids turn 12 year careers into 18 year careers and turn slap-hitting middle infielders into triple crown threats. Steroids not only make players stronger, they improve physical recovery time and reaction time. > > The quantity of impact between steroids and any other performance enhancer is an order of magnitude greater. Hence the outrage. So the outrage is because they work better? That’s what makes them “cheating”? Can’t say that’s all that convincing. My theory on the demonization of steroids is that it’s how the commies were able to get good results. When the “good guys” used technology to our advantage, that was just proving the superiority of democracy. Throw in WADA bullying and you get knee jerk steroids-are-bad-mmmmkay attitudes. I tend to agree with Patrick Hruby’s [take](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310) on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/162 "2006-03-13T20:57:57Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > I tend to agree with Patrick Hruby’s [take](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310) on the issue. He makes some points, but he could’ve used half as many analogies. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/163 "2006-03-13T21:03:03Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > My theory on the demonization of steroids is that it’s how the commies were able to get good results. When the “good guys” used technology to our advantage, that was just proving the superiority of democracy. Throw in WADA bullying and you get knee jerk steroids-are-bad-mmmmkay attitudes. I posted my response to this earlier in the thread: > [@](#): > > For those that are cool with steroid use in sports: OK, fine. But let’s dispense with the frills. No bats, balls, gloves, or uniforms. Just a bunch of guys shooting up gear into each others backsides – right there at home plate. Afterwards, they can hit the Cybex machines and see which gearhead can move the most weight. > > And look over there in the outfield – competing teams of labcoats working on cutting edge designer 'roids … more exciting than Iron Chef! Maybe Scooby-san could be at ground level letting us know what horse hormone they’re adding in … or just what species of whale that pituitary gland extract comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/164 "2006-03-13T21:30:49Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > How about Lasik? You’re joking right? I suppose all those amputees with their prosethetic limbs are “enhanced” too. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But performance enhancing surgery isn’t too far into the future if it isn’t already here. Is this “cheating”? Cite? This is the straw man of all straw men. This is the first time I’ve heard the famous bionic arms defense for steroid use. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > So the outrage is because they work better? That’s what makes them “cheating”? Can’t say that’s all that convincing. You asked why this gets more attention than the others, I answered. They are all cheating, no one has said otherwise. Can’t you read? > [@](#): > > My theory on the demonization of steroids is that it’s how the commies were able to get good results. When the “good guys” used technology to our advantage, that was just proving the superiority of democracy. Throw in WADA bullying and you get knee jerk steroids-are-bad-mmmmkay attitudes. You can invent theories until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t make any of them credible or compelling. Does it matter why people are pissed about it? Even if they _are_ overreacting in them media, does that make their use acceptable? Earlier in the thread the argument was made as to why steroids shouldn’t be allowed. Take a position in favor of that and it’s fine, a stupid position nonetheless, but you can argue it. To argue that it should be allowed because people are overreacting to isn’t even an argument at all. > [@](#): > > I tend to agree with Patrick Hruby’s [take](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310) on the issue. I agree with everything except the “Think of the Kids” part. Since when is “everyone else does it!” an acceptable argument? Comparing becoming a model to participating in organized sports is silly. To do so implies that there are no redeeming social benefits to children participating in athletics, which flys in the face of what we learned. Mind you, I generally hate the “think of the children” mindset that the politicians of the world use as talking points every election year, but this is the one case where it’s relevant. It was argued extensively earlier and I won’t repeat it, but crossing over from adults choosing to do it versus kids being compelled to do it is where it all falls apart. Even if you think all that’s crap, it’s a perfectly acceptable argument to say that we want to ban steroids totally arbitrarily. Essentially saying that that’s just how we want our sports. Just like banning the spitball is arbitraty, it’s just a rule that the game is framed within, who say’s you need a good reason. The fact that we have some only makes it more compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/165 "2006-03-14T05:02:38Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You’re joking right? I suppose all those amputees with their prosethetic limbs are “enhanced” too. Sure. What happens if they come up with prosthetics that are better than the original equipment? How isn’t Lasik surgery enhancing someone? They come out seeing better than before (usually)? Why is it OK to enhance your eyesight via surgery, but not make yourself stronger via chemicals? > [@Omniscient](#): > > Cite? This is the straw man of all straw men. This is the first time I’ve heard the famous bionic arms defense for steroid use. :rolleyes: You don’t think that they’ll come up with medical procedures that end up improving someone? Seems logical to me that this will happen. I suppose I could be wrong. > [@Omniscient](#): > > You asked why this gets more attention than the others, I answered. They are all cheating, no one has said otherwise. Can’t you read? Ummm…yes, I can. I never said they weren’t cheating (provided that steroids was made against the rules). If Bonds was breaking the rules, punish him accordingly. What is it, ten game suspension? Sounds reasonable. But thanks for illustrating my point that this subject produces such anger that it’s hard to get any useful dialog about it. > [@Omniscient](#): > > You can invent theories until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t make any of them credible or compelling. Does it matter why people are pissed about it? Even if they _are_ overreacting in them media, does that make their use acceptable? I jusr haven’t heard an great argument as to why they’re unacceptable. > [@Omniscient](#): > > Earlier in the thread the argument was made as to why steroids shouldn’t be allowed. Take a position in favor of that and it’s fine, a stupid position nonetheless, but you can argue it. To argue that it should be allowed because people are overreacting to isn’t even an argument at all. Except I’ve never made this argument. > [@Omniscient](#): > > I agree with everything except the “Think of the Kids” part. Since when is “everyone else does it!” an acceptable argument? Comparing becoming a model to participating in organized sports is silly. To do so implies that there are no redeeming social benefits to children participating in athletics, which flys in the face of what we learned. Mind you, I generally hate the “think of the children” mindset that the politicians of the world use as talking points every election year, but this is the one case where it’s relevant. It was argued extensively earlier and I won’t repeat it, but crossing over from adults choosing to do it versus kids being compelled to do it is where it all falls apart. You can let adults do it while making it against the rules for kids to do it. We have different sets of rules and laws for adults and children. > [@Omniscient](#): > > Even if you think all that’s crap, it’s a perfectly acceptable argument to say that we want to ban steroids totally arbitrarily. Essentially saying that that’s just how we want our sports. Just like banning the spitball is arbitraty, it’s just a rule that the game is framed within, who say’s you need a good reason. The fact that we have some only makes it more compelling. Banning the spitball wasn’t arbitrary. There’s no law that says baseball needs a good reason for their rules, but, really, you’d be happy with any sport coming up with arbitrary rules? I suspect all rule changes have a reason, not necessarily good ones, but they almost always have reasons. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/166 "2006-03-14T05:22:02Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Banning the spitball wasn’t arbitrary. There’s no law that says baseball needs a good reason for their rules, but, really, you’d be happy with any sport coming up with arbitrary rules? I suspect all rule changes have a reason, not necessarily good ones, but they almost always have reasons. Actually, there are only two reasons for pretty many any rule in any sport: 1. Player safety 2. Competitive balance Steroids are interesting in that they are banned because of _both_ reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/167 "2006-03-14T06:07:10Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Actually, there are only two reasons for pretty many any rule in any sport: > > 1. Player safety > 2. Competitive balance > > Steroids are interesting in that they are banned because of _both_ reasons. Agreed. My comments regarding “arbitrary” rules should be construed as a meaning those created for competitive balance. Maybe not arbitrary in the strict defintion of the word, but different from the other motives for banning steroids and other rule changes. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/168 "2006-03-14T14:26:08Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Sure. What happens if they come up with prosthetics that are better than the original equipment? How isn’t Lasik surgery enhancing someone? They come out seeing better than before (usually)? Why is it OK to enhance your eyesight via surgery, but not make yourself stronger via chemicals? Because with LASIK, you’re bringing someone’s eyesight up to the baseline. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/169 "2006-03-14T19:55:45Z")
In college I worked at the front desk of a Sheraton Hotel. A sports card show was going on in nearby and we had a lot of pro sports figures staying with us. Barry and his dad Bobby did not make it in the night of their reservation, but came in the next morning. Luckily we had held the room and I checked them in . Now the owner of our hotel is mega-wealthy. He owns most of a certain fast food chain in Florida. He gave me a baseball and a sharpie and asked me to try to get Bonds to sign the ball. So Barry is signing the registration and I tell him that the owner (who has also provided a number of very nice amenities in Bonds’ room gratis) would like to know if he would sign the baseball. Barry takes the ball… Barry takes the sharpie… Barry puts the sharpie to the ball… Barry looks at me and says, "No - I don’t think I want to. There was no one in the lobby. This was not causing a scene or any undo attention to be called upon Barry. He just didn’t wanna. Not a nice person. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/170 "2006-03-14T20:19:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Because with LASIK, you’re bringing someone’s eyesight up to the baseline. Actually LASIK can (and many ballplayers have) bring eyesight beyond the baseline to 20/15 eyesight. True, some people do have 20/15, but it is fairly rare. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/171 "2006-03-14T20:24:35Z")
Interestingly, speaking of LASIK, found this Slate article on athletes taking advantage of better than normal eyesight through the procedure: > **[If steroids are cheating, why isn't LASIK?](https://slate.com/technology/2005/04/if-steroids-are-cheating-why-isn-t-lasik.html)** > > And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/172 "2006-03-15T05:26:27Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Actually, there are only two reasons for pretty many any rule in any sport: > > 1. Player safety > 2. Competitive balance > > Steroids are interesting in that they are banned because of _both_ reasons. How about the real reason for the steroid ban: public relations. I don’t see how competitive balance enters into it. I kind of doubt that player safety was the reason, but there’s an argument for that. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Actually LASIK can (and many ballplayers have) bring eyesight beyond the baseline to 20/15 eyesight. True, some people do have 20/15, but it is fairly rare. It got Tiger Woods to 20/15. I’d think better than normal eyesight in a baseball player could be a pretty big advantage. But why is it OK to bring athletes back to baseline using artificial means, but not go past that baseline? And what’s the baseline for something that steroids enhance…say, strength? Is it OK to use steroids to bring you back to the strength baseline? How would you figure out the baseline? Doesn’t weight training take you past the baseline? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/173 "2006-03-15T05:48:44Z")
The competitive balance thing is probably too subjective to argue definitively, but if everyone used steroids the game would probably devolve into a home run derby. Even though the home run spike interested fans in the short term, I think in the long term it’d lead to players like Bonds and McGuire who hit more home runs than singles. Can’t say that’d be particularly interesting. More importantly it effects the competitive balance because only some players are using it. If everyone isn’t playing on the same playing field physically, it’s going to damage competition. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/174 "2006-03-16T06:17:34Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > More importantly it effects the competitive balance because only some players are using it. If everyone isn’t playing on the same playing field physically, it’s going to damage competition. I’d be pretty surprised if there’s an MLB player that couldn’t find a source if he wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/175 "2006-03-16T06:22:30Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > I’d be pretty surprised if there’s an MLB player that couldn’t find a source if he wanted to. Are you being deliberately obtuse? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/176 "2006-03-16T06:43:54Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Are you being deliberately obtuse? About what? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/177 "2006-03-16T06:45:21Z")
Getting back to the subject of the OP, Barry Bonds, here’s something I find interesting: Another book, this one titled Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Anti-hero, is going to be published soon. According to this book, Bonds said to Ken Griffey Jr (with about 3 other players around) that he was going to start using steroids in an attempt to prolong his career, and increase his stats. It seems to support the claims made in the first book about Bonds and his alleged steroid use. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/178 "2006-03-16T12:22:25Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Getting back to the subject of the OP, Barry Bonds, here’s something I find interesting: > > Another book, this one titled Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Anti-hero, is going to be published soon. According to this book, Bonds said to Ken Griffey Jr (with about 3 other players around) that he was going to start using steroids in an attempt to prolong his career, and increase his stats. > > It seems to support the claims made in the first book about Bonds and his alleged steroid use. At a similiar sports card show like I mentioned above, I had an experience with KG Jr. It was like 8 am and his family was in the lobby pleading with him to come down so they could go to the show, where he was signing. It was obvious that they were having a hard time with him. When he came down he sat down on a couch and wept, saying he was too tired to go to the show. The guy was weeping about having to go sign cards and baseballs for $100 a pop. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/179 "2006-03-16T12:39:23Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Getting back to the subject of the OP, Barry Bonds, here’s something I find interesting: > > Another book, this one titled Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Anti-hero, is going to be published soon. According to this book, Bonds said to Ken Griffey Jr (with about 3 other players around) that he was going to start using steroids in an attempt to prolong his career, and increase his stats. > > It seems to support the claims made in the first book about Bonds and his alleged steroid use. I heard in an interview on the radio with the author. He sounded like a hack out to capitalize the issue after getting one good piece of information. The first book, from the excerpt I read in SI, sounds much well researched and supported. As far as the debate goes, I think it’s insane to think that Bonds is innocent, or that the taking of steriods didn’t help prolong his career and increase his statistics. There is enough evidence there to suspend him, to asterisk his numbers, and never allow him into the Hall, all of which would be fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437/180 "2006-03-16T13:45:13Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The competitive balance thing is probably too subjective to argue definitively, but if everyone used steroids the game would probably devolve into a home run derby. Even though the home run spike interested fans in the short term, I think in the long term it’d lead to players like Bonds and McGuire who hit more home runs than singles. Can’t say that’d be particularly interesting. I’m sorry, but… McG **w** ire. McG **w** ire. McG **w** ire. As to the issue; 1. Of course Bonds took steriods. 2. Suspending or punishing him now for his actions in 1999 would be utterly pointless and unfair. If he tests positive NOW, well, that’s different. 3. There is no point in putting an “asterisk” next to any of his numbers, and 4. Let the Hall voters do as they choose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-is-going-down/347437.md?page=10)