# Barry Bonds MVP?? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 22, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692 "2001-11-22T02:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/21 "2001-11-25T23:50:53Z")
> [@](#): > > The only thing McGwire did better than Sosa (who also stole 18 bases) in '98 was hit 4 more long balls during two meaningless games at the end of the year. Not quite. You’re looking at the wrong numbers. Try OBP & SLG. Runs & RBIs are very team dependent. > [@](#): > > So the edge goes to Bonds there for the 177 walks and .872 slugging percentage. Ummm…yeah. It’s a huge edge. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/22 "2001-11-26T00:46:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The only thing McGwire did better than Sosa (who also stole 18 bases) in '98 was hit 4 more long balls during two meaningless games at the end of the year. > > Not quite. You’re looking at the wrong numbers. Try OBP & SLG. Runs & RBIs are very team dependent.\*\* Allrighty then, since **Yookeroo** doesn’t want to offer up the numbers, here they are: Mac’s OBP: .470 Sammy’s OBP: .377 Mac’s SLG: .752 Sammy’s SLG: .647 Ok, I’m looking at them **Yookeroo**. I guess your point here is that Mac got on base at a higher percentage than Sammy and had a higher slugging percentage. Ok… Yet they still scored about the same number of runs. Granted that scoring runs depends on the teammates, I said so myself earlier, but how valuable is having your guy on base if he doesn’t go anywhere from there? Mac is not a base-stealing threat. Walk him all you want, he’s not getting past 1st base unless someone gets a hit. And even on base he’s easy pickings for a double play ball. So how valuable is a .470 OBP when you aren’t going past 1st base without the help of your teammates? As for the slugging percentage, let’s look at the numbers _behind_ the slugging percentage: Mac got 152 hits - 70 HRs, 21 doubles, and 61 singles, 162 BB and 509 AB. Sammy got 198 hits - 66 HRs, 20 doubles, 112 singles, 73 BB and 643 AB. This shows me Mac is a better slugger while Sosa is a better contact hitter with a ton of power. It’s also a matter of batting stlyes. Mac is more patient (rather he _was_ more patient _sniff sniff_) at the plate than Sosa, but Sosa gets the higher batting average and more at bats. More walks mean fewer at bats for the stats, making a percentage uneven. I still don’t see either stat swinging the vote to McGwire over Sosa in '98. But all that’s really beside the point, as I was citing other numbers because **5 time champ** made it sound as if the HR record falling was the sole reason for Bonds getting the MVP award and claiming a double standard: > [@](#): > > In 1998 Mark McGwire hit 70 home runs to break Roger Maris 37 year old record of 61 in a season. > > Mark McGwire was deemed unworthy to be MVP in '98 because his team, the St Louis Cardinals, didn’t make the playoffs. Sammy Sosa, of the Cubs hit 66, the Cubs were the Wild Card entry. Sosa won the MVP. > > 2001 BB breaks a 3 year old record. The SF Giants did not make the playoffs, but BB is MVP. I was just showing that the HRs aren’t everything in deciding who the MVP is. And whether one considers runs and RBIs team-dependant or not, we know the reality is that those numbers are looked at and given much weight when determining who the MVP is. Same goes for Clemens’ latest Cy Young award and 20-3 record. The people who decide look at the win-loss record and apparantly don’t care how much run support from the teammates was involved in getting the pitcher that record. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > So the edge goes to Bonds there for the 177 walks and .872 slugging percentage. > > Ummm…yeah. It’s a huge edge.\*\* Gee, ya think maybe that’s why I cited two seemingly unbreakable Babe Ruth records being broken as Barry being deserving of the award? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/23 "2001-11-26T01:18:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > Ok, I’m looking at them **Yookeroo**. I guess your point here is that Mac got on base at a higher percentage than Sammy and had a higher slugging percentage._\* Right. The two most important things a player can do (offensively). Mac was far better at both things. > [@](#): > > Ok… Yet they still scored about the same number of runs. Granted that scoring runs depends on the teammates, I said so myself earlier, but how valuable is having your guy on base if he doesn’t go anywhere from there? Mac is not a base-stealing threat. Walk him all you want, he’s not getting past 1st base unless someone gets a hit. And even on base he’s easy pickings for a double play ball. So how valuable is a .470 OBP when you aren’t going past 1st base without the help of your teammates?\*\* More valuable than Sosa’s .377 OBP. But why penalize Mac for what his teammates were like? MVP is an an individual award. > [@](#): > > As for the slugging percentage, let’s look at the numbers _behind_ the slugging percentage: Why? > [@](#): > > Mac got 152 hits - 70 HRs, 21 doubles, and 61 singles, 162 BB and 509 AB. > Sammy got 198 hits - 66 HRs, 20 doubles, 112 singles, 73 BB and 643 AB. > This shows me Mac is a better slugger while Sosa is a better contact hitter with a ton of power. It’s also a matter of batting stlyes. Mac is more patient (rather he _was_ more patient _sniff sniff_) at the plate than Sosa, but Sosa gets the higher batting average and more at bats. More walks mean fewer at bats for the stats, making a percentage uneven. Sosa gets more ABs because he’s making more outs. More walks mean fewer outs. And more runs which lead to more wins. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/24 "2001-11-26T01:26:42Z")
Yeah, I gotta admit you make some good points there **Yookeroo**. In terms of individual accomplishments, (which, as you remind me, the MVP award is) Mac seems to have had a leg up on Sosa. And looking back on what I typed, it does seem hypocritical of me to disregard Mac’s SLG% while citing Bonds’ as reason to be the MVP. Whatever the case in '98 though, I think Bonds deserved it this year. I’m sticking to my guns about Clemens though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/25 "2001-11-26T01:55:05Z")
Another factor why Sosa won in 1998 was that, in the final month when the Cubs were in the thick of a pennant race, many of his homeruns won valuable games for the Cubs, being some as the final at-bat. The voters love such clutch hitting among power players. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/26 "2001-11-26T02:18:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > \*\*Now what I can’t understand is Clemens getting another frickin’ Cy Young award. Sure he went 20-1 at one point and ended 20-3, but the Yanks gave him _6.6 runs of supports per game_! > > Look at Mike Mussina’s numbers (who IIRC, got 4.3 runs of support from the Yankees) compared to Clemens: > > Clemens: > 20-3; 33 starts; 0 complete games; 0 shutouts; 220 1/3 IP; 213 K; 72 BB; 19 HR; 3.51 ERA > > Mussina: > 17-11; 34 starts; 4 complete games; 3 shutouts; 228 2/3 IP; > 214 K; 42 BB; 20 HR; 3.15 ERA > > They’re numbers are nearly identical, but Clemens got the Cy Young I guess due to his 20-3 record. Let’s just disregard the team giving him all that run support and say it’s all him shall we? Let’s disregard the fact he couldn’t complete _one game all season_. Meanwhile his teammate Mussina got 4 complete games (3 of them shutouts), was only 3 losses behind Clemens in the win column, got less run support, walk fewer batters, and had a significantly lower ERA. > > I don’t think Clemens deserved the Cy Young that year. Mussina seemed to be the better Yankee pitcher to me. \*\* Yeah, and how 'bout Mark Mulder for the A’s? I’m not sure, I suppose I could look it up, but I think he finished with 21 wins and 5 CGs, at least 2 of which were SOs. Like Roger needed another. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/27 "2001-11-26T03:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BigDaddyD \* > \*\*Yeah, and how 'bout Mark Mulder for the A’s? I’m not sure, I suppose I could look it up, but I think he finished with 21 wins and 5 CGs, at least 2 of which were SOs. Like Roger needed another. \*\* Ah, Mulder, another good choice. His record is: 21-8 (those 21 wins leads the league BTW); 34 starts; 6 complete games (second best); 4 shutouts (league lead); 229 1/3 IP; 153 K; 51 BB; 16 HR; 3.45 ERA Compare to the Yankee pitchers: Clemens: 20-3; 33 starts; 0 complete games; 0 shutouts; 220 1/3 IP; 213 K; 72 BB; 19 HR; 3.51 ERA Mussina: 17-11; 34 starts; 4 complete games; 3 shutouts; 228 2/3 IP; 214 K; 42 BB; 20 HR; 3.15 ERA Mussina has a lower ERA, fewer walks and more strikeouts, but Mulder has him beat in the other catagories. I’d say it’s a close call between those two, but both seem to be more deserving than Clemens this year. And there’s also Freddy Garcia of the Mariners, who pitched a league leading 3.05 ERA among starters (not counting Pedro Martinez who started only 18 games). His record was 18-6; 34 games started; 4 complete games; 3 shutouts; 238 2/3 IP; 69 BB; 16 HR; 163 K. Any one of those guys I would have taken over Clemens (still leaning towards Mussina though). I guess the voters were so awestruck at the first man to post a 20-1 record and who passed Walter Johnson for most career Ks in the American League (he did do that this year right?) that they didn’t look much deeper. But to have that record and not complete _one game_? The man gets no respect from me. He owes his record to the bullpen and the batters. If the bullpen had blown the lead in just 3 of his starts, Clemens would be 17-3. Or if the batters hadn’t come through in his no-decisions, he could easily be 20-8. Still an impressive win-loss record, but I think not having 20 wins would’ve forced the voters to scrutinize his numbers a little more closely. I’ll have to look at my magazine I have at home again (Baseball Digest), but in it they define a quality start as pitchings 7 innings and giving up only 3 runs or less. Under that definition, Clemens did not have one quality start all season. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/28 "2001-11-26T05:57:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > \*\*I’ll have to look at my magazine I have at home again (Baseball Digest), but in it they define a quality start as pitchings 7 innings and giving up only 3 runs or less. Under that definition, Clemens did not have one quality start all season. \*\* Um, what the heck gives you that idea? Clemens certainly pitched many games this year in which he threw 7 innings and gave up 3 runs or fewer. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/29 "2001-11-26T07:13:02Z")
Actually a quality start is 6 innings pitched with 3 earned runs or fewer. By that standard Clemens had 20 quality starts in 2001. If you want to raise the standard to seven innings and 3 earned runs or fewer then the number goes down to 12. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/30 "2001-11-26T22:49:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Um, what the heck gives you that idea? Clemens certainly pitched many games this year in which he threw 7 innings and gave up 3 runs or fewer. \*\* I got that idea from the magazine I get - Baseball Digest. I said I’d have to look again, meaning I wasn’t sure. I didn’t take a second look at it last night. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Big\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Iron)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692/31 "2001-11-30T11:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5 time champ \* > \*\*I hope I am posting this to the right forum. . . > Barry Bonds named 2001 NL MVP? What a joke. > > This is a double standard. > > In 1998 Mark McGwire hit 70 home runs to break Roger Maris 37 year old record of 61 in a season. > > Mark McGwire was deemed unworthy to be MVP in '98 because his team, the St Louis Cardinals, didn’t make the playoffs. Sammy Sosa, of the Cubs hit 66, the Cubs were the Wild Card entry. Sosa won the MVP. > > 2001 BB breaks a 3 year old record. The SF Giants did not make the playoffs, but BB is MVP. In 2001 it doesn’t matter where the team finishes, the MVP is judged on the player’s stats. > > Luis Gonzalez of the D’Backs deserved the MVP, he lead his team to the NL West Championship. [The votes were cast before the playoffs.] > > Absolutely ridiculous. What are these sportswriters smoking? \*\* The problem is that Big Mac should have won in 1998. Bonds deserved it in 2001 – like Mac in 98, he did the most to help his team win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/barry-bonds-mvp/94692.md?page=1)