# BART police officer gets involuntary manslaughter for killing passenger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036 "2010-07-09T00:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/41 "2010-07-09T04:48:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, that’s precisely the point, isn’t it? > > You made a response based on “factual” information that was not only incorrect, but had _been_ incorrect for the past year and a half. If the “last hearing [you] heard about it was denied,” that means that the last hearing you heard about was over 17 months ago. If you want to make factual assertions about a trial that was decided today, it’s probably best, as a general principle, not to offer declarative statements based on what you heard back in early 2009. Lots of stuff happened between then and now. Screw you, I only heard about the verdict 5 minutes before I posted. There was nothing inflamatorry about it. Excuse me if I don;'t spend every waking moment reading the paper. A quick cite showing I was wrong would have been sufficient you dick. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/42 "2010-07-09T05:19:36Z")
Once again I’m returned to the position that the biggest problem in the intersection between “civilians” and police in America is the Taser. These things need to be off the equipment belts and off the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/43 "2010-07-09T05:21:47Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Screw you, I only heard about the verdict 5 minutes before I posted. There was nothing inflamatorry about it. Excuse me if I don;'t spend every waking moment reading the paper. A quick cite showing I was wrong would have been sufficient you dick. Personal insults like this do not belong in Great Debates or any forum except the Pit. Don’t do this again. **mhendo** , I suggest you tone it down as well. **Stuffy** made an error but you’re being unnecessarily harsh in correcting it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/44 "2010-07-09T05:32:05Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I remember there was some important game where the Raiders lost, and people rioted (well not so much riot as smashed things drunkenly). Another time, the Raiders won, and … people rioted. The trick to riots is that they tend to occur when people have legitimate beefs but feel they have no constructive way to express them. They are a boiling over of longstanding tensions. When tensions are high enough, _anything_ can trigger a riot. When tensions are low, even the world injustice won’t trigger one. FWIW, Oakland is not just some huge hellhole. Did you know it’s the city with the most working artists west of Manhattan? It is a hugely diverse city that has inherited a butt load of problems, including some of the starkest income differences you will find in America. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/45 "2010-07-09T05:59:41Z")
There was some smashing of storefronts (the ones that hadn’t been boarded up for the past week in anticipation of the verdict) and mild looting, mostly done by self-described “anarchists” who weren’t ever a part of the peaceful protest up to that point. The streets downtown (where I live) were more deserted than on Christmas day (even Chinatown was barren), except for the intersection where the protest was taking place. There are still helicopters buzzing around, but it was nowhere near as bad as predicted. The local news anchors seem disappointed that there wasn’t more violence. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/46 "2010-07-09T06:08:19Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Once again I’m returned to the position that the biggest problem in the intersection between “civilians” and police in America is the Taser. These things need to be off the equipment belts and off the streets. I’d say the problem isn’t the taser, it’s that the cops are far too blasé about their use. If the use of a handgun would not have been justified in a given situation, neither should a taser. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/47 "2010-07-09T06:32:11Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > FWIW, Oakland is not just some huge hellhole. Did you know it’s the city with the most working artists west of Manhattan? It is a hugely diverse city that has inherited a butt load of problems, including some of the starkest income differences you will find in America. Not sure if you’re talking to me or if this is a separate statement from the reply. Assuming the former, I know that! I’ve been to Rockridge and such, Downtown is more interesting (and not nearly as bad as people seem to suggest in this thread, except for perhaps being near a protest?). I would also think that the income disparity is much smaller elsewhere, especially in places with much lower minimum wages and much much lower cost of living. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/48 "2010-07-09T06:38:05Z")
The conviction is the correct one given the situation but it doesn’t adequately convey the gravity of the situation. I’m amazed it hasn’t happened before. It’s just like the shooting of the guy who was reaching for his wallet. The officers unloaded their pistols because that’s how they were trained on the shooting range. If Tasers and procedures aren’t changed because of this then that makes it a greater tragedy because it will happen again. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/49 "2010-07-09T06:43:05Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I’d say the problem isn’t the taser, it’s that the cops are far too blasé about their use. If the use of a handgun would not have been justified in a given situation, neither should a taser. That’s exactly my point. Tasers were marketed to police as less lethal (not non-lethal) alternatives to using their guns. The initial usage guidelines were exactly as you said, Tasers were to be used as an _alternative_ to the gun, if there wasn’t justification to use a firearm, there wasn’t justification to use the Taser. Somehow, that went right out the window and we, the public, have been forced to go along with cops pulling and using Tasers in situations where a gun would never ever have been considered acceptable, see: that guy who was Tasered a few weeks ago for running out onto the field at a baseball game, the infamous “don’t tase me, bro” guy, etc. Those who aren’t affected, and especially those who aren’t in a demographic that has _serious_ reason to fear and disrespect the police as a default position, applaud and _laugh_ when this dangerous weapon is used against non-violent, unarmed people. We’ve become coarsened and calloused by the emergence of Tasers as means of forced compliance, rather than next-to-last resort tools of\* defense\*. We’ve stood idly by as cops have become simultaneously too lazy to do anything so vigorous as chasing suspects who are a whole five feet away and too aggressive to make efforts at non-violent means of diffusing charged situations. No more Tasers. If a cop is going to unholster a weapon, it’s going to need to be a deadly one, and if it’s used, there’s going to have to be a damned good reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/50 "2010-07-09T06:46:08Z")
Is there any practical reason I’m overlooking for why they design the tasers with pistol grips and such? They’re short range and (I assume) single shot, and I can’t imagine there’s much recoil either. Is it just for the cool look or what? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/51 "2010-07-09T07:14:05Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Is there any practical reason I’m overlooking for why they design the tasers with pistol grips and such? They’re short range and (I assume) single shot, and I can’t imagine there’s much recoil either. Is it just for the cool look or what? It represents the logical design for Tasers. The obvious problem is that it’s also the optimal design for guns. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/52 "2010-07-09T07:31:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The obvious problem is that it’s also the optimal design for guns. And electric drills. And power paint sprayers. And compressed-air nailers. Gee, pretty much any hand-held point-and-aim device. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/53 "2010-07-09T07:52:43Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > No more Tasers. If a cop is going to unholster a weapon, it’s going to need to be a deadly one, and if it’s used, there’s going to have to be a damned good reason for it. I disagree, here. Metaphorically speaking, I really would rather that, all other things being equal, cops set their phasers to “stun” rather than “brain splatter”. That being said, I fully agree with the gist of your argument : we, as a society, should fully expect and demand that the painbuzzers be only used as a next-to-last resort. Police officers who use them because they can’t be arsed to manhandle a suspect, or as a run-of-the-mill compliance device, or as punishment, or for shits and giggles should be \*immediately \*shitcanned and sued to oblivion by their victims, if not thrown in jail. There should be automatic, routine internal inquiries every time an officer discharges as taser, just as there are whenever a single bullet is spent. The problem being, as you say, that there’s no real drive behind that kind of measure : the cops sure as shit prefer firing away without having to give a rat’s arse or being second guessed, and the grand majority of the public either erroneously believe being tased is no big deal, or applaud when “bad guys” get zapped 37 times. The laughter only dies when the victim does as well. Oops, _shrug_, oh hey \*Survivor \*is on ! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/54 "2010-07-09T08:29:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The linked article said he was also convicted on the gun enhancement charge, so he’s looking at a total of 5-14 years. That aspect seems kinda of goffy, because he did not INTEND to use a gun, he did that part accidentally. It was perfectly legal for him to have a gun. It was perfectly legal for him to have a taser. He THOUGHT he was using the taser. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/55 "2010-07-09T10:57:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I disagree, here. Metaphorically speaking, I really would rather that, all other things being equal, cops set their phasers to “stun” rather than “brain splatter”. And as you were suggesting, part of the problem is when [people die immediately or soon after being tased](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser#Safety_concerns). It appears like more research should be done on safety and that they’re generally very safe, but when things happen like 4 people dying post-tazing in a two month span in late 2007 (in Canada), people get nervous about the seeming overuse of tasers. If you’re going to use it as a simple “stun gun” for cases when someone’s being a little unruly, what happens when they keel over and die immediately after? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/56 "2010-07-09T11:34:54Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Would I be correct in assuming that this sentence will make him ineligible for any kind of peace officer job in the United States? Or can he go work as a police officer elsewhere when his sentence runs out? A felony conviction makes him ineligible to carry a gun under federal law. So that pretty much kills any chance of him working as a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/57 "2010-07-09T11:45:07Z")
Was the prosecution’s theory of the crime that the officer shot him instead of Tasing him because he didn’t like black people? I only skimmed the article. While I wouldn’t want a police officer who can’t tell his Taser from his sidearm, I don’t know if 5-14 years in prison is appropriate either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/58 "2010-07-09T12:30:21Z")
I am surprised that so much credence is being given to the idea that the use of the pistol was an accident. In my experience, if one has trained to draw from a given holster position, one does not suddenly mix up that position with another. But even that is a secondary argument to me; I think too much weight is given to “intent” anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/59 "2010-07-09T12:30:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But one does not have to be familiar with the defendant, or the law, to offer a personal opinion on what constitutes appropriate punishment for an incident like this. I used fruitless in the sense of it being not just a waste of time because what we say won’t matter, but also in the sense that it’s silly to come to a conclusion about something without having relevant information. And a big part of the relevant information in deciding how long you’re going to want to lock someone up in prison is the person, the intent of that person, and the facts and circumstances of the crime. I don’t believe in one sentence fits all based solely on the type of crime committed. I think we should go beyond just “an incident like this” or “the actions committed” and consider much more in deciding what is fair and just. That’s why we have sentencing hearings too. And I simply don’t have enough information to reach a conclusion I would feel comfortable calling for yet. I only have a minimal of information and vague feelings, and those shouldn’t be the basis of calling for a certain set of years in prison or, in the extreme like some here, the death penalty. > [@mhendo](#): > > You are familiar, i assume, with the concept that one can actually disagree with the punishments and the procedures provided for by society’s laws? Sure. Not sure why you feel the need to ask, but sure I’m familar with it. I’m also familar with the concept that one should try to have a great deal of relevant information before deciding a just outcome. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/60 "2010-07-09T12:32:46Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Tasers were to be used as an _alternative_ to the gun, if there wasn’t justification to use a firearm, there wasn’t justification to use the Taser. Cite? If that were true, there would be almost no need to for cops to have guns. > [@](#): > > Tasers were introduced as less-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous subjects, often when what they consider to be a more lethal weapon would have otherwise been used. > **[Taser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser)** > > Taser (stylized in all caps) is a line of handheld conducted energy devices (CED) sold by Axon Enterprise (formerly Taser International). The device fires two small barbed darts intended to puncture the skin and remain attached to the target until removed by the user of the device. The darts are connected to the main unit by thin wires that achieve a high dielectric strength and durability given the extremely high-voltage electric current they conduct (typically 50,000 volts, or 2,000 volts un The above description sounds accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=4)