# BART police officer gets involuntary manslaughter for killing passenger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036 "2010-07-09T00:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/61 "2010-07-09T12:40:59Z")
n/m; the issue was already addressed ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/62 "2010-07-09T13:50:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Personal insults like this do not belong in Great Debates or any forum except the Pit. Don’t do this again. > > **mhendo** , I suggest you tone it down as well. **Stuffy** made an error but you’re being unnecessarily harsh in correcting it. Fine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/63 "2010-07-09T13:54:46Z")
Is there a picture available of the particular model of taser he used? I’d like to see if it could be mistaken for a pistol. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/64 "2010-07-09T14:20:35Z")
I don’t know anything about Oakland … Does BART mean this is a transit cop? It’s interesting that the defense’s argument is that the officers are poorly trained and can’t tell a Taser from a handgun. So Oakland has reached the point where the people who are supposed to protect us are actually killing us instead and their defense is that they don’t know how to do their jobs properly. Whatever the outcome for this particular BART police officer, I would think Oakland needs to reassess whether it is worthwhile to continue to have a BART police system at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/65 "2010-07-09T14:27:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Was the prosecution’s theory of the crime that the officer shot him instead of Tasing him because he didn’t like black people? I only skimmed the article. I was under the impression that their theory was that the officer shot a prone man who was not resisting arrest, and thus use of deadly force was totally unwarranted. **shiftless** - yes, it’s the transit cops there. I think it stands for Bay Area Rail (Rapid?) Transit. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/66 "2010-07-09T14:48:22Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > I don’t know anything about Oakland … Does BART mean this is a transit cop? > > It’s interesting that the defense’s argument is that the officers are poorly trained and can’t tell a Taser from a handgun. So Oakland has reached the point where the people who are supposed to protect us are actually killing us instead and their defense is that they don’t know how to do their jobs properly. Whatever the outcome for this particular BART police officer, I would think Oakland needs to reassess whether it is worthwhile to continue to have a BART police system at all. BART traverses well over a dozen police jurisdictions city and county. I don’t think the ciity of Oakland has any say over them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/67 "2010-07-09T14:55:04Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I was under the impression that their theory was that the officer shot a prone man who was not resisting arrest, and thus use of deadly force was totally unwarranted. I went back and read the article. This is what I am talking about > [@](#): > > Alameda County District Attorney Nancy O’Malley said the jury’s findings showed it did not buy Mehserle’s explanation that he meant to use his Taser. Nonetheless, she said, she was disappointed and frustrated by the verdict. > > “As you are well aware, we believe that Johannes Mehserle was guilty of the crime of murder,” she said. “We presented the case that way, we presented the evidence that way, and the jury found otherwise. But it is important to note that this jury did not relieve Johannes Mehserle of his criminal liability.” It sounds to me like the prosecution felt that Mehserle intended to shoot, not use a Taser. Was there any evidence presented of why they thought that this was his intent? AFAICT the jury didn’t buy that. They thought the cop pulled out (and fired) his pistol instead of his Taser, and that it was unintentional. On reflection, I guess I can’t disagree too much with the verdict. Pulling a gun instead of a Taser is pretty reckless. I have no idea what elements need to be established for involuntary manslaughter - reckless indifference? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/68 "2010-07-09T14:57:07Z")
Here’s BARt Police history [page](http://www.bart.gov/about/police/history.aspx), where I learned nothing new. I wonder if they report to ABAG in some fashion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/69 "2010-07-09T15:05:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a picture available of the particular model of taser he used? I’d like to see if it could be mistaken for a pistol. [Nevermind-found it.](http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sigsauer40caliber-versus-x26taser.jpg) Sonofabitch! Who the hell thought making a taser look and feel like pistol was a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/70 "2010-07-09T15:10:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And yeah, I’d avoid Oakland except in my Iron Man armor. Is [this](http://www.biomed.engsoc.org/system/files/images/real-iron-man.jpg) you? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/71 "2010-07-09T15:11:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Nevermind-found it.](http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sigsauer40caliber-versus-x26taser.jpg) > Sonofabitch! Who the hell thought making a taser look and feel like pistol was a good idea? Wow. I assume that is a gun on the left, and the taser on the right. Pretty similar, especially (it appears) if viewed from astern. They should make the whole body of the taser yellow, or sumthin. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/72 "2010-07-09T15:19:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I have no idea what elements need to be established for involuntary manslaughter - reckless indifference? > [@Oakland Tribune](#): > > Mehserle faces one of the following: > > Second-degree murder: Mehserle knew the actions he was taking could cause a death but took those actions any way. > > Voluntary manslaughter: Mehserle acted in the heat of passion or Mehserle believed his life was in danger but used too much force in defending himself. > > Involuntary manslaughter: Mehserle committed an act that posed a high risk of death or great injury because of the way the act was committed. Or, Mehserle’s actions could be found by a reasonable person to be reckless. > > The 28-year-old former BART police officer was facing first-degree murder, but last week a judge declared that jurors would not be allowed to consider that option. To my reading of these distinctions, _even if we believe_ the notion that Mehserle intended to and thought he was using the Taser instead of a firearm, the voluntary manslaughter charge would have been more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/73 "2010-07-09T15:37:15Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > BART traverses well over a dozen police jurisdictions city and county. I don’t think the ciity of Oakland has any say over them at all. Indeed, it has nothing to do with the city of Oakland at all except that the incident took place at a train station within Oakland city limits. BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) police are in charge of security on the train system, which operates in many cities and several counties. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/74 "2010-07-09T15:39:40Z")
Oh, and to be fair, I have to admit that I was wrong in my prediction that there would be no riots in Oakland. There were some, but fairly lmited in scope, and they seem to have been perpetrated not by Oakland residents but by out-of-town troublemakers looking for an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/75 "2010-07-09T16:23:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > He THOUGHT he was using the taser. There’s a big difference between heat-of-the-moment and time-to-consider. When driving a car I force myself to hesitate and consider before turning, but would still swerve reflexively in an emergency. But the videos I saw show the victim as motionless and seeming to pose no possible threat. Supposedly he was speaking loudly in a vain effort to _defuse_ tension. That the cop would unholster and fire a weapon “in cold blood” without devoting the same mental care I use when making a left turn (or even taking a shower!) is inexcusable. (But having said that, I don’t know that a long prison term is appropriate when the real fault lies with whoever hired and trained this cop.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/76 "2010-07-09T16:24:25Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > To my reading of these distinctions, _even if we believe_ the notion that Mehserle intended to and thought he was using the Taser instead of a firearm, the voluntary manslaughter charge would have been more appropriate. IANAL, but these descriptions don’t address the distinction that seems to be relevant - Mehserle didn’t intend to use deadly force at all. The description of the voluntary manslaughter charge sounds more like it applies to cases where deadly force was intended, but was an over-reaction. Therefore ISTM that voluntary manslaughter would have been appropriate if Mehserle intended to shoot because he thought the victim was about to get free and run. But he didn’t intend to shoot at all (if his statement “I’m going to Tase him” is probative.) “Lie still or I’ll shoot” sounds like voluntary manslaughter. “Lie still or I’ll Tase you - oops” sounds more like involuntary manslaughter. Like I say, IANAL, nor a juror either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/77 "2010-07-09T18:09:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Nevermind-found it.](http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sigsauer40caliber-versus-x26taser.jpg) > Sonofabitch! Who the hell thought making a taser look and feel like pistol was a good idea? No, it’s the obvious, sensible way to design it. Look at the specs:[ul] [li]It has to be held in the hand.[/li][li]It has to be held steadily, but with one finger free to fire it.[/li][li]It has to be easy to hold and aim accurately.[/li][li]It has to be carried in a holster, but with part of it sticking out so it can be quickly drawn out.[/li][/ul]These requirements seem to naturally lead to something with a gun-like shape. (As I said earlier, a whole lot of hand-held tools end up being that basic shape, from electric drills to paint sprayers to cordless screwdrivers.) What kind of a different shape would you design for it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/78 "2010-07-09T18:13:38Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > No, it’s the obvious, sensible way to design it. > > Look at the specs:[ul] > [li]It has to be held in the hand.[/li][li]It has to be held steadily, but with one finger free to fire it.[/li][li]It has to be easy to hold and aim accurately.[/li][li]It has to be carried in a holster, but with part of it sticking out so it can be quickly drawn out.[/li][/ul]These requirements seem to naturally lead to something with a gun-like shape. (As I said earlier, a whole lot of hand-held tools end up being that basic shape, from electric drills to paint sprayers to cordless screwdrivers.) > > What kind of a different shape would you design for it? Baton-shaped, with button and thumb-flick button cover. Fits in holster, pulls out fast, easy to operate, _and won’t be mistaken for a gun of the same size, shape and weight._ ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/79 "2010-07-09T18:31:23Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > What kind of a different shape would you design for it? The picture he linked shows the taser as being almost the same size as the gun, and therein lies the problem. The weapons feel too much alike. You could still use a gun shape if you made it somehow immediately distinguishable…a fatter grip, longer barrel, paint the whole thing dayglo orange, very different grip shape–one curved, the other straight, different textures on the grips…whatever you want to do, just be sure someone could not mistake one for the other. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/80 "2010-07-09T18:33:55Z")
One key difference is that the taser is a significantly lighter than a gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=5)