# BART police officer gets involuntary manslaughter for killing passenger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036 "2010-07-09T00:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/121 "2010-07-10T05:01:24Z")
The lack of clear behavioural distinction seems like a fair defense to me as mitigating circs rather than a complete letoff. The video to me looks like accident in that the action is so practised. The buck still stops with him but the need for some very clear behavioural distinctions makes sense to me as far as preveting future incidents go , eg offhand draw for taser or whatever. And perhaps too much ‘quickdraw’ training might be a hazard and if anything added to his responsibility rather than reducing it? Some things can be too automatic. Otara ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/122 "2010-07-10T05:14:04Z")
I know very little about the case (saw videos when it happened and read this thread) but I _definitely believe_ that the cop intended only to tase, which certainly reduces the crime. Why? _The shooting would just be too inexplicable otherwise_. (I’m a fan of such probabilisitic reasoning, which should probably get me excused from any jury duty. For example, I knew Anita Hill was telling the truth in the Thomas hearing because the specific lying would otherwise be far too unlikely.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/123 "2010-07-10T09:04:25Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > And electric drills. And power paint sprayers. And compressed-air nailers. Gee, pretty much any hand-held point-and-aim device. True. And look how closely some of them resemble [guns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M26_Taser.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/124 "2010-07-10T12:58:21Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Now there are states actually trying to make it illegal for anyone to Video tape a police officer. Gee, I wonder why. Really? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/125 "2010-07-10T13:22:43Z")
I’ll look for a better cite, but in the meantime, here’s a nice summary: [http://forums.myspace.com/t/4793246.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread](http://forums.myspace.com/t/4793246.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread) 12 states so far. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/126 "2010-07-10T14:06:11Z")
The guy had his knee on the guy’s neck, correct? So if he was going to tase, wasn’t he risking inflicting harm on himself? Or am I not understanding how tasing works? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/127 "2010-07-10T15:06:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I know very little about the case (saw videos when it happened and read this thread) but I _definitely believe_ that the cop intended only to tase, which certainly reduces the crime. > > Why? _The shooting would just be too inexplicable otherwise_. (I’m a fan of such probabilisitic reasoning, which should probably get me excused from any jury duty. For example, I knew Anita Hill was telling the truth in the Thomas hearing because the specific lying would otherwise be far too unlikely.) I have something of the same opinion. The story just screams “ill-trained & incompetent” rather than “murderous.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/128 "2010-07-10T16:09:10Z")
NPR reported this AM that he could get anywhere from probation to 14 years. They reported that the “expert consensus” was he’d get ~6 yrs. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/129 "2010-07-10T16:35:35Z")
Do police guns not have a safety? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/130 "2010-07-10T17:20:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I know very little about the case (saw videos when it happened and read this thread) but I _definitely believe_ that the cop intended only to tase, which certainly reduces the crime. > > Why? _The shooting would just be too inexplicable otherwise_. Not having looked very deeply into this, this is what I feel as well. I haven’t read the entire thread, but has anyone here or elsewhere offered an explanation as to what they think his motivation was for the shooting? I don’t think there was any immediate threat to him or other officers at that moment. The accidental explanation seems to make the most sense to me just because I can’t imagine an officer saying, “Hey, you know what, I’m going to kill this bastard”. especially when they were in a public place and he was not in any real danger himself. Is there an alternate theory? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/131 "2010-07-10T17:35:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not having looked very deeply into this, this is what I feel as well. I haven’t read the entire thread, but has anyone here or elsewhere offered an explanation as to what they think his motivation was for the shooting? I don’t think there was any immediate threat to him or other officers at that moment. The accidental explanation seems to make the most sense to me just because I can’t imagine an officer saying, “Hey, you know what, I’m going to kill this bastard”. especially when they were in a public place and he was not in any real danger himself. Is there an alternate theory? For me, it doesn’t matter. That is, even if we accept that he meant to use the taser and not the gun, i think that the level of negligence from a law enforcement officer in this case is sufficient to warrant a pretty hefty sentence. If we’re going to arm our police with guns and tasers, then an inability to tell one from the other should not constitute a defense or a mitigating factor when you shoot a prone person in the back, in my opinion. I agree with you that it appears, from the video, that there was no “immediate threat to him or other officers at that moment.” But if that’s the case, why did he even need to draw a taser, let alone a gun? If the experts **John Mace** heard on NPR turn out to be right, and he gets about 6 years, and if the gun enhancement means that he serves 85% of that, then i won’t be too unhappy, even though i’d prefer the sentence to be longer. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/132 "2010-07-10T17:46:33Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Do police guns not have a safety? Honestly? No, not as you would commonly understand it. The most popular handgun in law enforcement circles is sold by Glock, and Glock handguns do not have a manual safety. They have three different safeties that disengage sequentially as the trigger is depressed, meaning that the only “manual safety” is the operator. SigSauer sells other popular models, and as with the Glock it has no manual safety even as it is very different in operation. Revolvers never had a manual safety. Believe it or not, manual safeties on handguns are fairly rare. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/133 "2010-07-10T17:51:41Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Do police guns not have a safety? Every gun has multiple safeties, unless it is perhaps \>100 years old. They have safeties that prevent it from firing if dropped, safeties that prevent the hammer being jostled, etc. What you are asking about is a manual safety, and the answer is it depends. Some smaller departments might still use revolvers, which don’t. The most popular seems to be Glock models. They don’t have the traditional manual safety (switch or button), but do have trigger safeties, which along with grip safeties can supposedly only be disengaged if you are holding the pistol in a correct manner. I’m sure YMMV between departments. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/134 "2010-07-10T17:55:26Z")
[http://www.google.com/products?q=tasers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=hbM4TJecOI6MnQe-zMTkAw&sa=X&oi=product\_result\_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CEsQrQQwAg](http://www.google.com/products?q=tasers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=hbM4TJecOI6MnQe-zMTkAw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CEsQrQQwAg) Not all tasers look like or feel like guns. I don’t think any really are that easy to mistake. But the guy was on his face, arms in back of him not resisting. Why did the cop feel a need to taser? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/135 "2010-07-10T18:30:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The guy had his knee on the guy’s neck, correct? So if he was going to tase, wasn’t he risking inflicting harm on himself? No - this was a case involving BART, but he wasn’t a conductor. _/rimshot_ I’ll be here all week. Don’t forget to tip your waitress. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/136 "2010-07-10T18:50:50Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > What the po pos didnt say is that he was on route to the local Renaissance fair. But on his way to participate in Ye Olde Drunken Axe Toss, so it all worked out. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/137 "2010-07-10T18:58:19Z")
Thanks guys. Frankly, I am shocked that a manual safety is not on every police weapon. Why would they not be on there by default? Isn’t this the kind of disaster they were designed to prevent? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/138 "2010-07-10T19:05:37Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Thanks guys. Frankly, I am shocked that a manual safety is not on every police weapon. Why would they not be on there by default? Isn’t this the kind of disaster they were designed to prevent? Maybe when you need to use it rather quickly you don’t want to take the time to take a manual safety off. A safety is to prevent an accidental discharge, not to give you time to stop and reflect on whether or not you should shoot. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/139 "2010-07-10T19:07:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The accidental explanation seems to make the most sense to me just because I can’t imagine an officer saying, “Hey, you know what, I’m going to kill this bastard”. especially when they were in a public place and he was not in any real danger himself. Is there an alternate theory? It certainly seems one reasonable explanation. The non-accidental theory I’d buy is that he really did have a sudden fear and fired based on a moment of panic. He testified that he decided to tase Grant because he thought he was trying to dig in his pocket. He also testified that, _ever since his academy days, he constantly practiced drawing a gun from a holster. “It was the tool that was going to save your life,” he said._ So based on his constant practice drawing his pistol ( and his minimal experience practicing with his taser ), that’s the first thing he sought to do when he felt under threat ( maybe without even thinking much about it ) and then in a split-second of panic, he fired ( again, maybe mostly in reflex ). This in my mind would be consistent with VM, theory 2 - i.e. _He acted in “imperfect self-defense,” based on an actual but unreasonable belief that he needed to use lethal force._ ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/140 "2010-07-10T19:21:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Maybe when you need to use it rather quickly you don’t want to take the time to take a manual safety off. A safety is to prevent an accidental discharge, not to give you time to stop and reflect on whether or not you should shoot. 🙂 Ahh. I was under the assumption that it would take less than a second to flick a switch. My gun ignorance shines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=8)