# BART police officer gets involuntary manslaughter for killing passenger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036 "2010-07-09T00:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/141 "2010-07-10T19:24:20Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Ahh. I was under the assumption that it would take less than a second to flick a switch. My gun ignorance shines. It takes me a second or so on my ancient Beretta, but I’m not very good. I’d begrudge that second if I was shooting at someone who I thought was going to shoot me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/142 "2010-07-10T19:32:31Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Ahh. I was under the assumption that it would take less than a second to flick a switch. My gun ignorance shines. Or you pull the trigger, mutter expletives, and then spend three seconds fiddling with it, all the while whatever you’re shooting at isn’t going to stop. See my post on the second page, police depts. want the simplest design possible, so that the action of drawing and firing your pistol is automatic and doesn’t require a lot of thought. I don’t have any experience with Glocks, but most DAO pistols require much more force on the trigger to fire, but it’s always a consistent amount (I think they’re actually a little different than DAO though). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/143 "2010-07-10T19:48:01Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > Thanks guys. Frankly, I am shocked that a manual safety is not on every police weapon. Why would they not be on there by default? Isn’t this the kind of disaster they were designed to prevent? No, if you need to draw a weapon it should be 100% ready to fire. If the weapon is pulled going into a potentially dangerous situation than the “safety” is the training to hold the finger against the gun and not on the trigger. IMO, tasers should not resemble guns in any way, should be brightly colored to avoid confusion and involve training that is distinctly different from fire arm use. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/144 "2010-07-10T20:19:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I agree with you that it appears, from the video, that there was no “immediate threat to him or other officers at that moment.” But if that’s the case, why did he even need to draw a taser, let alone a gun? Finally, someone gets to the crux of the issue. Given that Grant was pretty much subdued when he was shot, why was the officer drawing any kind of device or weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/145 "2010-07-10T20:32:00Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Finally, someone gets to the crux of the issue. Given that Grant was pretty much subdued when he was shot, why was the officer drawing any kind of device or weapon? It’s a valid point but I’m not sure it’s relevant to the trial. It comes down to intent. Maybe it adds to the level of negligence andmay be considered during sentencing. Don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/146 "2010-07-10T20:45:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a valid point but I’m not sure it’s relevant to the trial. First, i’m not sure why it shouldn’t be at least partly relevant. If there was no reason for him to pull any sort of weapon, doesn’t that increase his culpability for what happened when his _did_ draw the weapon. He definitely intended to draw a weapon, even if the weapon he thought he was drawing was his taser. If he hadn’t drawn a weapon at all, then the killing—accidental or otherwise—never would have happened. But even if you’re right about relevance, that’s why i’ve been arguing all along in this thread that, even if the trial verdict was an appropriate reflection of the law as currently written, the law itself needs to allow greater scope for punishment in cases like this, especially where peace officers demonstrate such extreme negligence in carrying out their duties. If we’re going to allow gross incompetence or poor training or inadequate preparation to mitigate such actions by cops, we leave ourselves open to more incidents of this type. Lots of jurisdictions have harsher penalties for people who kill law enforcement officers in the commission of a crime, even if the killing itself is accidental, and i think laws like that are a good thing. I think we should also hold those officers up to a similarly high standard when they kill someone due to their own incompetence. If the cop had been involved in a gun battle with an armed suspect, and had accidentally killed someone with a stray round, that’s a completely different thing. But this cop stood over a prone and subdued person, drew his gun, aimed it at the guy from a distance of two feet, and hit the guy he was aiming at. That’s a very different kind of “accident,” in my opinion. Even if he thought he was holding his taser, he should spend considerable time in prison. Anyway, whatever sentence Mehserle ends up with, there’s a decent chance that a considerable burden of this incident will fall on the shoulders of Bay Area taxpayers and transit riders. Grant’s family is suing BART for $25 million. BART is already in a financial hole, and if it loses the civil judgment, guess who’s going to get hit up for the cash? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/147 "2010-07-10T20:49:29Z")
This is a fucking travesty. Justice in this country is a joke, just a big goddamn stupid joke. I know this isn’t really a GD worthy post but what the hell can you really say? It’s heartbreaking, it’s fucking heartbreaking. Caught on video putting a bullet in a helpless man’s back and this is all the son of a bitch gets. Fuck me. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/148 "2010-07-11T00:03:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > IMO, tasers should not resemble guns in any way, should be brightly colored to avoid confusion and involve training that is distinctly different from fire arm use. While it did resemble a gun, Mehserle’s x-26 taser apparently was at least partially bright yellow. His sidearm was a Sig-Sauer p226 which weighed ~3x the taser fully loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/149 "2010-07-11T01:06:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > First, i’m not sure why it shouldn’t be at least partly relevant. If there was no reason for him to pull any sort of weapon, doesn’t that increase his culpability for what happened when his _did_ draw the weapon. He definitely intended to draw a weapon, even if the weapon he thought he was drawing was his taser. If he hadn’t drawn a weapon at all, then the killing—accidental or otherwise—never would have happened. > > But even if you’re right about relevance, that’s why i’ve been arguing all along in this thread that, even if the trial verdict was an appropriate reflection of the law as currently written, the law itself needs to allow greater scope for punishment in cases like this, especially where peace officers demonstrate such extreme negligence in carrying out their duties. > > If we’re going to allow gross incompetence or poor training or inadequate preparation to mitigate such actions by cops, we leave ourselves open to more incidents of this type. Lots of jurisdictions have harsher penalties for people who kill law enforcement officers in the commission of a crime, even if the killing itself is accidental, and i think laws like that are a good thing. I think we should also hold those officers up to a similarly high standard when they kill someone due to their own incompetence. > > If the cop had been involved in a gun battle with an armed suspect, and had accidentally killed someone with a stray round, that’s a completely different thing. But this cop stood over a prone and subdued person, drew his gun, aimed it at the guy from a distance of two feet, and hit the guy he was aiming at. That’s a very different kind of “accident,” in my opinion. Even if he thought he was holding his taser, he should spend considerable time in prison. > > Anyway, whatever sentence Mehserle ends up with, there’s a decent chance that a considerable burden of this incident will fall on the shoulders of Bay Area taxpayers and transit riders. Grant’s family is suing BART for $25 million. BART is already in a financial hole, and if it loses the civil judgment, guess who’s going to get hit up for the cash? I agree with what you’re saying but there has been a push in recent history to codify sentencing in an attempt to make justice blind. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/150 "2010-07-11T01:18:07Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > While it did resemble a gun, Mehserle’s x-26 taser apparently was at least partially bright yellow. His sidearm was a Sig-Sauer p226 which weighed ~3x the taser fully loaded. It seems less gun-like than others I’ve looked at but you’ll note I included training as part of the mix. I would say it’s the most important part. If he intended to taser the person then it’s an autonomic function to unholster, point and squeeze. There is no direct thought process in the physical action. It’s like thinking about walking. Going back to my earlier example of the person who was shot thirty(?) some odd times. The training the police officers had at the shooting range was to shoot at a target until the gun was empty. Of course, if the training is to group 3 shots and reacquire and there are 3 officers then that’s 9 shots fired. Training has to start somewhere and should always evolve as new situations come up. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/151 "2010-07-12T00:32:38Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > How was “justice” “corrupted?” That a life has been unecessarily snuffed out and the offending officer will get as much time as Michael Vick but not as much as OJ Simpson. Do you want to be a BART officer? All you need is: > [@](#): > > Possession of a high school diploma, GED or recognized equivalent and completion of at least 30 semester (or 45 quarter) credits of college course work from an accredited college or university. At least one half of the credits must be obtained in analytical subjects requiring written reports or examinations . These requirements are a joke and amounts to handing high school dropouts a gun, badge, and an order to “Serve and Protect”. Police officers are poorly trained because they are (surprise, surprise!) uneducated. Even the [BART Chief of Polic](http://www.bart.gov/about/police/)e boats of a master’s degree from the University of Phoenix. :smack: Yes, ladies and gentleman, the [University of Phoenix](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Phoenix#Controversy). You’ve never heard of a graduate of West Point or the USAFA accidently shooting a Afgahn civilians in the back of the head when they meant to reach for a taser. My hunch is that it’s because somewhere in the training of a soldier there is a class (or a maybe a group of classes) on how to differentiate a firearm and a taser. Or maybe it’s just common sense. \ ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/152 "2010-07-12T00:36:50Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Do you want to be a BART officer? All you need is: > > > [@](#): > > > > Possession of a high school diploma, GED or recognized equivalent and completion of at least 30 semester (or 45 quarter) credits of college course work from an accredited college or university. At least one half of the credits must be obtained in analytical subjects requiring written reports or examinations. > > These requirements are a joke and amounts to handing high school dropouts a gun, badge, and an order to “Serve and Protect”. No, they really aren’t. In fact, they’re saying that, at a minimum, you need to have completed high school (or its equivalent; that’s what a GED is), PLUS 30 semester credits of college work. You can argue that these requirements are not rigorous enough (although i’m not sure i’d agree with you), but they definitely do NOT mean that BART is full of “high school dropouts.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/153 "2010-07-12T00:42:25Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Would I be correct in assuming that this sentence will make him ineligible for any kind of peace officer job in the United States? Or can he go work as a police officer elsewhere when his sentence runs out? As a general rule, anything that gets you a jail sentence longer than 1 year renders you illegible for any kind of police officer work. Or security work. Also typically leads to loss of right to vote and right to own a gun. There some exceptions to the above, but that usually revolves around non-violent crime. What this officer did was, unquestionably, violent. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/154 "2010-07-12T01:00:00Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > That a life has been unecessarily snuffed out and the offending officer will get as much time as Michael Vick but not as much as OJ Simpson. Then it seems the problem is not too much consideration of “intent” in the law, but being too easy on people when it comes to sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/155 "2010-07-12T21:44:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Intent does matter, not only in law, but in my own idea of what constitutes reasonable justice. > > At the same time, i have a nagging sense that justice was not served here, even if the verdict is supported by the law and the facts of the case. I think that, when we arm police officers and send them out into the world, we need to have pretty high expectation that they will be able, in the heat of the moment, to distinguish between deadly force and non-deadly force. > > Even if, as you suggest, he really thought he was about to use his taser, and even if he didn’t intend to kill him, i think the level of negligence shown in this case warrants a much stiffer sentence than the one mandated by the law. It may be that the jury made the right call, given the facts and the law as currently written. But, if that’s the case, then i think that the law, as written, is not severe enough for cases like this. True. I wonder if they carry their taser’s cross draw or on same side as the gun. THis is why they teach to wear it cross draw.. that way they’ll be less likely for “confusion”. And this shit about poorly trained? Bullshit.. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/156 "2010-07-12T22:53:45Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No, they really aren’t. > You can argue that these requirements are not rigorous enough (although i’m not sure i’d agree with you), but they definitely do NOT mean that BART is full of “high school dropouts.” Are you kidding me? Of course the requirements to become a police officer aren’t rigorous enough. I’m wary of cops because it’s my belief that people - especially young males - who desire power over others probably shouldn’t have it; there needs to a means in which we, as a country, ask that our officers have not just “a sense of justice” but a college degree. In return, we should pay the officers much more. There’s no reason why an officer should have work part-time as a security guard or do overtime to make a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/157 "2010-07-13T01:33:24Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I’m wary of cops because it’s my belief that people - especially young males - who desire power over others probably shouldn’t have it It looks that your belief is really that police officers desire to have power over other people. What’s your basis for that belief? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/158 "2010-07-13T01:34:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What’s your basis for that belief? While I’ve known some who were quite reasonable, I’ve know some that abuse it like hell! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/159 "2010-07-13T04:32:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > That aspect seems kinda of goffy, because he did not INTEND to use a gun, he did that part accidentally. It was perfectly legal for him to have a gun. It was perfectly legal for him to have a taser. He THOUGHT he was using the taser. I find his claim spurious at best. A Taser weighs about 7 ounces- roughly the same as an orange. A Glock 17 variant weighs about 30 ounces - slightly more than a watermelon. Here’s an experiment you can try at home: pick up a plastic bag containing an orange, then pick up a plastic bag containing a watermelon. I think you’ll find it’s totally fucking impossible to confuse the two. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036/160 "2010-07-13T05:00:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I find his claim spurious at best. > > A Taser weighs about 7 ounces- roughly the same as an orange. A Glock 17 variant weighs about 30 ounces - slightly more than a watermelon. > > Here’s an experiment you can try at home: pick up a plastic bag containing an orange, then pick up a plastic bag containing a watermelon. I think you’ll find it’s totally fucking impossible to confuse the two. While not necessarily negating your point about the weight difference between the taser and the Glock, i would like to point out that 30 ounces is less than two pounds, and i can’t remember the last time i lifted a watermelon that was under two pounds. I know there are some relatively small varieties, but most watermelons i’ve come across in the US have weighed between 5 and 15 pounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bart-police-officer-gets-involuntary-manslaughter-for-killing-passenger/546036.md?page=9)