# Bartok's music and copyright **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075 "2015-12-10T14:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/1 "2015-12-10T14:42:21Z")
According to [this page](http://imslp.org/wiki/IMSLP:Copyright_Made_Simple) on IMSLP (sheet music resource,) if I understand correctly, written music (sheet music/compositions by classical composers) are out of copyright worldwide if both of the following conditions are fulfilled: 1. The composer died more than 70 years ago. 2. The piece is published before 1923. The composer Bartok died in 1945. His piece “Romanian Folk Dances” exists in two versions, one from 1915 and one from 1917. Does this mean that on January 1, 2016, I can be absolutely sure that this piece of music will, on that date, be out of copyright worldwide? Bonus question: On a related note, will Mascagni’s opera “Cavalleria Rusticana,” from 1890, also be out of copyright in 2016, given that Mascagni also died in 1945? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/2 "2015-12-10T16:39:04Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > According to [this page](http://imslp.org/wiki/IMSLP:Copyright_Made_Simple) on IMSLP (sheet music resource,) if I understand correctly, written music (sheet music/compositions by classical composers) are out of copyright worldwide if both of the following conditions are fulfilled: > > 1. The composer died more than 70 years ago. > 2. The piece is published before 1923. It’s out of copyright in the US if only the second condition is applicable. > [@](#): > > The composer Bartok died in 1945. His piece “Romanian Folk Dances” exists in two versions, one from 1915 and one from 1917. Does this mean that on January 1, 2016, I can be absolutely sure that this piece of music will, on that date, be out of copyright worldwide? One can’t be absolutely sure of anything, but it would seem the work is out of copyright worldwide. > [@](#): > > Bonus question: On a related note, will Mascagni’s opera “Cavalleria Rusticana,” from 1890, also be out of copyright in 2016, given that Mascagni also died in 1945? Same thing. It would be out of copyright in the US long ago, and is probably public domain worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/3 "2015-12-10T17:32:19Z")
Thank you. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > …One can’t be absolutely sure of anything, but it would seem the work is out of copyright worldwide… Now I’m kind of wondering if it’s already out of copyright, or if I should wait until 2016. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/4 "2015-12-10T17:54:06Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Thank you. > > Now I’m kind of wondering if it’s already out of copyright, or if I should wait until 2016. What do you do with a piece that’s out of copyright ? ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/5 "2015-12-10T18:02:03Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > What do you do with a piece that’s out of copyright ? I like to write arrangements of music (so that it can be played by different instruments other than the original - arranging a piano piece for brass band, for example.) It’s legal to make arrangements of music that’s out of copyright. Arranging still-copyrighted music is more complicated, as you have to get permission to do it, and I think you also have to pay money to do it, or else the original copyright holders get money from the sales, I think. (I’m not an expert on this, which is why I usually stick to arranging out-of-copyright music.) ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/6 "2015-12-10T18:55:03Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Thank you. > > Now I’m kind of wondering if it’s already out of copyright, or if I should wait until 2016. Well, start now and work slow! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/7 "2015-12-10T20:10:06Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Now I’m kind of wondering if it’s already out of copyright, or if I should wait until 2016. The IMSLP has both versions of the piece in question; both are marked as “Non-PD EU”, i.e., still under copyright in the EU. However, they are both in the public domain in the United States. So you could arrange and publish the work in the United States, but you can’t disseminate it in the EU until next year. ETA: Bartók seems to be the best-known composer whose works will come into the public domain over the next few years. After him, I think the next composer of comparable stature to die was Richard Strauss (whose works should come into the public domain worldwide in 2020.) ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/8 "2015-12-10T22:27:17Z")
I sell sheet music on a site where people from all over the world can buy it, so I try to publish arrangements of music that I’m sure is public domain worldwide. [This website](http://logosfoundation.org/copyleft/public_domain_composers.html) has a list of composers who are in public domain, according to death year, though from what I know about copyright, the list seems off by a year. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/9 "2015-12-10T22:43:47Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > ETA: Bartók seems to be the best-known composer whose works will come into the public domain over the next few years. After him, I think the next composer of comparable stature to die was Richard Strauss (whose works should come into the public domain worldwide in 2020.) Just in time for _2020: A Space Odyssey 3, Odd and Odyssier_! @EmilyG: 2016 is three weeks from tomorrow. Could you really arrange and publish something faster than that? Also, when will you be starting an “Ask the professional music arranger” thread? I’d really find that fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/10 "2015-12-10T23:20:27Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > Just in time for _2020: A Space Odyssey 3, Odd and Odyssier_! > > @EmilyG: 2016 is three weeks from tomorrow. Could you really arrange and publish something faster than that? Also, when will you be starting an “Ask the professional music arranger” thread? I’d really find that fascinating. Well, I am working on non-Bartok-related music arrangements at the moment, so in all likelihood, I won’t have time to arrange the Bartok pieces before the new year anyway. Don’t know if there’d be enough interest in starting an “Ask the” music arranger thread, but nice to know there are people out there who find music arranging fascinating. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/11 "2015-12-11T14:38:07Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > I like to write arrangements of music (so that it can be played by different instruments other than the original - arranging a piano piece for brass band, for example.) It’s legal to make arrangements of music that’s out of copyright. Arranging still-copyrighted music is more complicated, as you have to get permission to do it, and I think you also have to pay money to do it, or else the original copyright holders get money from the sales, I think. (I’m not an expert on this, which is why I usually stick to arranging out-of-copyright music.) Didn’t know that. Thank you. Making arrangement of Bartok’s music ? I thought only a genius could do that. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/12 "2015-12-11T16:51:39Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > Didn’t know that. Thank you. > > Making arrangement of Bartok’s music ? I thought only a genius could do that. Not sure how much of a genius I am, but I have had a crack at arranging his music before (for obligatory music school assignments, for example.) Bartok wrote a lot of short piano pieces that lend themselves well to all sorts of different arrangements. I’ve been waiting for a while for his music to go out of copyright. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/13 "2015-12-11T18:23:28Z")
Bartok wrote “music”? His “Miraculous Mandarin” is just highly orchestrated noise. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/14 "2015-12-11T18:29:50Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Bartok wrote “music”? His “Miraculous Mandarin” is just highly orchestrated noise. Glad there’s someone who shares my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/15 "2015-12-11T18:38:15Z")
I’m not familiar with “Miraculous Mandarin,” and since it was finished in 1924, it might still be under copyright anyway. Bartok’s Romanian Folk Dances, I find, are some of his more accessible, listenable pieces, though I like (and I even compose) a lot of music that many people might consider weird. So, it looks like the Folk Dances will be out of copyright worldwide next year. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/16 "2015-12-11T19:10:36Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Well, I am working on non-Bartok-related music arrangements at the moment, so in all likelihood, I won’t have time to arrange the Bartok pieces before the new year anyway. > > Don’t know if there’d be enough interest in starting an “Ask the” music arranger thread, but nice to know there are people out there who find music arranging fascinating. 😃 OK, so, you’ve got a solo piano piece like the Romanian Dances, and you want to arrange it for, I assume, full orchestra. Is there a standard process you go through, or is each arrangement a completely different problem? Is there trial and error involved? “Hmm, that little bit might sound good on a bassoon. Oops, nope, it really doesn’t. OK, cello, you’re up!” I’m especially curious where you’ll put that quirky little melody from … Pe Loc, is it? I’m guessing a flute could pull it off, but a flute solo, or the whole section? How do you even make decisions like that? Do you have to embellish the piece to involve the broader range of sounds that an orchestra can produce? How do you integrate percussion? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/17 "2015-12-11T19:28:09Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > I sell sheet music on a site where people from all over the world can buy it, so I try to publish arrangements of music that I’m sure is public domain worldwide. > > [This website](http://logosfoundation.org/copyleft/public_domain_composers.html) has a list of composers who are in public domain, according to death year, though from what I know about copyright, the list seems off by a year. \*Beethoven’s gone, but his music lives on And Mozart don’t go shopping no more You’ll never meet Liszt or Brahms again ♫ And Elgar doesn’t answer the door Schubert and Chopin used to chuckle and laugh Whilst composing a long symphony But one hundred and fifty years later There’s very little of them left to see They’re decomposing composers There’s nothing much anyone can do You can still hear Beethoven But Beethoven cannot hear you ♫ \* Monty Python - **Decomposing Composers** (copyright) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/18 "2015-12-12T04:08:06Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > I like to write arrangements of music (so that it can be played by different instruments other than the original - arranging a piano piece for brass band, for example.) It’s legal to make arrangements of music that’s out of copyright. Arranging still-copyrighted music is more complicated, as you have to get permission to do it, and I think you also have to pay money to do it, or else the original copyright holders get money from the sales, I think. (I’m not an expert on this, which is why I usually stick to arranging out-of-copyright music.) Is there some sort of Canadian Authors and Publishers Union? One of the services they offer is to take care of those things for any members. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/19 "2015-12-12T06:43:30Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Well, I am working on non-Bartok-related music arrangements at the moment, so in all likelihood, I won’t have time to arrange the Bartok pieces before the new year anyway. > > Don’t know if there’d be enough interest in starting an “Ask the” music arranger thread, but nice to know there are people out there who find music arranging fascinating. 😃 I’d be interested in it. Do you do it for a living or just for fun? I can’t compose my way out of a paper bag, but when listening to music I often think to myself “this section would sound better with some horns”, or “they need some keyboards here”, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bartoks-music-and-copyright/740075/20 "2015-12-12T14:32:06Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > OK, so, you’ve got a solo piano piece like the Romanian Dances, and you want to arrange it for, I assume, full orchestra. Is there a standard process you go through, or is each arrangement a completely different problem? > > Is there trial and error involved? “Hmm, that little bit might sound good on a bassoon. Oops, nope, it really doesn’t. OK, cello, you’re up!” I’m especially curious where you’ll put that quirky little melody from … Pe Loc, is it? I’m guessing a flute could pull it off, but a flute solo, or the whole section? How do you even make decisions like that? > > Do you have to embellish the piece to involve the broader range of sounds that an orchestra can produce? How do you integrate percussion? I have done some arranging for orchestra (this is also called “orchestration”,) though I don’t do much of it these days, as there are already so many other people working in that particular area. I mostly arrange for groups of wind instruments, such as clarinet choir (that’s a group of all different kinds of clarinets.) Lately I’ve been doing a lot of arranging duets for violin and clarinet, as there’s a demand for it, and not much existing material. As for choosing which instrument can play which part of the original piece (piano piece in this case,) it mostly boils down to the ranges of each instrument. For example, the cello has a low range, so if you have a melody that’s mostly low notes, you can arrange it for cello. Also, certain instruments can only play certain notes softly, and certain other notes loudly. Also, there are combinations of instruments that sound good together, and some that sound less good together, so a music arranger has to take that into consideration too. (Hmm, maybe I really should start a thread about it.) Getting back to the Bartok dances, they’ve already been arranged for orchestra by the composer, I believe. I’m planning to find out what instruments/instrument combos they haven’t been arranged for yet, and working on that (I’ve done this before with other music.) > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I’d be interested in it. Do you do it for a living or just for fun? > > I can’t compose my way out of a paper bag, but when listening to music I often think to myself “this section would sound better with some horns”, or “they need some keyboards here”, and so on. It sounds like you have a good musical ear. I do earn money composing music, and arranging other people’s music, though at this point it’s not enough to actually live on.