# Baseball bleachers torn down after ruling that girls softball team's seats must be equal **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 1, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051 "2014-04-01T04:41:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/61 "2014-04-01T20:52:52Z")
> [@AdmiralQ](#): > > How in the world does differences in spectator seating make the facilities that are actually used - the fields themselves - worse for the girls than the boys? As long as both fields are to each sport’s specifications, safe to play on, and maintained to similar standards, where’s the problem? > > The actual participants use the fields, not the spectator seating. Who cares whether or not the spectators have equivalent facilities? They aren’t the ones playing the sport! Apparently, the people who bought the suit and the courts. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@AdmiralQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralQ)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/62 "2014-04-01T20:57:53Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Apparently, the people who bought the suit and the courts. Very true, but that doesn’t mean both the filers of the lawsuit and the courts aren’t idiots. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/63 "2014-04-01T21:25:50Z")
So how do state colleges have the football stadiums that they do? Does title 9 only apply to high school? Are girls allowed on the base ball teams? Are boys allowed on the softball teams? If it has different rules, different fields, not like basket ball, hockey, soccer, golf, etc., how can their be the same outlay of expenses? If 100 people on average show up to spectate at a boys game and 10 on average show up for the girls games, you only need 110 equal seats, right? Just put 10 at the girls field. Also, why do football fields get more seats than basketball? I think title 9 is not nearly comprehensive enough. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/64 "2014-04-01T21:26:47Z")
> [@AdmiralQ](#): > > Very true, but that doesn’t mean both the filers of the lawsuit and the courts aren’t idiots. As are the school administrators and booster parents who upgraded the baseball field without seeing this coming. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/65 "2014-04-01T21:40:12Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > So how do state colleges have the football stadiums that they do? Does title 9 only apply to high school? Stadiums are often multi-use facilities, there will rarely be a single-use and single-gender facility. Even so-called “football only” stadiums found on many state college campuses are also used for commencement ceremonies, concerts, lacrosse, soccer, and other events. One of the notable stupidities of the school in question is having two separate fields for teams of each gender. Why not have scheduling switch up who uses each field at different times? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/66 "2014-04-01T22:11:37Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Why not have scheduling switch up who uses each field at different times? Because baseball and softball require fields with different dimensions. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/67 "2014-04-01T22:20:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because baseball and softball require fields with different dimensions. Shows how closely I follow softball. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/68 "2014-04-02T14:05:32Z")
As a former NCAA, High School, and Rec League umpire, I’ve witnessed a LOT of disparity between men’s and women’s facilities. Women get shit on all of time. More often than not, when I had to officiate a women’s sporting event I had to change in my car; but there was almost always an umpire room in the men’s facilities. I’m a card carrying republican, and Title IX is one thing that definitely see as a good thing; and has helped more than it has hurt. While bleachers fall as close to a grey area as possible; I have to agree with BigT: > [@](#): > > These parents can be as selfish as they want on their own property, but, at school, they have to consider others. Equal extracurricular education opportunities are to be offered to both sexes. Just because the parents have the money to build what they want doesn’t mean they get to have their way. The school is public property, not their own private place. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/69 "2014-04-02T14:07:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because baseball and softball require fields with different dimensions. Not just different dimensions; but different playing surface. Softball doesn’t use a pitcher’s mound; and baseball has a grass infield, while softball has a skinned infield. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/70 "2014-04-02T14:15:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Boys’ facilities are better - there is nothing to “admit”, that’s the premise. Because boy’s parents got together, paid for them and built them. Girls’ parents didn’t. Alternatively, the boys’ parents could have gotten together and petitioned the school board to upgrade the baseball field. But they didn’t, because that would have violated Title IX. This is a pretty obvious end run around Title IX, and _the school_ knew it all along. Blame them. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/71 "2014-04-02T14:58:16Z")
Serious question… Does Title IX require similar amounts of money be spent according to gender or that there not be disparity according to how facilities and equipment are supplied? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/72 "2014-04-02T15:26:44Z")
They weren’t handicapped accessible, wouldn’t that be against the law too? Also, the headline should be: “New bleachers temporarily put in storage until in compliance with the law” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/73 "2014-04-02T15:34:53Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Does Title IX require similar amounts of money be spent according to gender or that there not be disparity according to how facilities and equipment are supplied? No. It requires “equivalent treatment”, which is interpreted basically along the latter lines. In the context of athletics, mens’/boys’ programs are compared to womens’ programs as a whole across all sports, but disparity in “equivalent” sports (like baseball and softball) creates the presumption of disparate treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/74 "2014-04-02T15:43:25Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Serious question… > > Does Title IX require similar amounts of money be spent according to gender or that there not be disparity according to how facilities and equipment are supplied? It looks like the [“Three Part Test”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX#Three-part_test) is the main guideline: > [@](#): > > “Institutions must provide both the opportunity for individuals of each sex to participate in intercollegiate competition, and for athletes of each sex to have competitive team schedules which equally reflect their abilities.” Compliance can be assessed in any one of three ways: > > - Providing athletic participation opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment. This prong of the test is satisfied when participation opportunities for men and women are “substantially proportionate” to their respective undergraduate enrollment. > > - Demonstrating a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution has a history and continuing practice of program expansion that is responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex (typically female). > > - Accommodating the interest and ability of underrepresented sex. This prong of the test is satisfied when an institution is meeting the interests and abilities of its female students even where there are disproportionately fewer females than males participating in sports. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/75 "2014-04-02T18:55:33Z")
Huh. I didn’t read the story linked in the OP until today, but the last three paragraphs make this seem a lot less destructive than in the OP: > [@](#): > > “As a resolution to the district’s violation of longstanding Title IX requirements to offer equal athletic opportunities to both boys and girls, the Department’s office of Civil Rights (OCR) accepted the district’s voluntary agreement to address this inequality by constructing necessary improvements to the softball field, or demolishing the baseball structure, or some combination of both. The final decision on how best to comply with the law was made by the district. OCR’s preference from the beginning, was for the district to construct a similar structure for the girls’ softball team.” – U.S. Department of Education spokesperson > > The school agreed to take the seats down after receiving a citation for not providing handicap accessibility and as an option to comply with the federal assessment of the bleachers. > > The superintendent says the seats and materials will be stored until they can form a plan that complies with the rules and is fair to everyone. He adds the money is not available to build a similar seating deck at the girls’ field, but their field will be getting a new scoreboard. > > Read more: [FOX 2 Detroit](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/25095169/baseball-bleachers-taken-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal#ixzz2xkxxVtoN) - The district decided to take the seats down, not the court or the Dept. of Education - The seats still exist, they’re just in storage until the district figures out how to address the issue ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/76 "2014-04-02T19:18:29Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > So how do state colleges have the football stadiums that they do? Does title 9 only apply to high school? > > Are girls allowed on the base ball teams? Are boys allowed on the softball teams? > > If it has different rules, different fields, not like basket ball, hockey, soccer, golf, etc., how can their be the same outlay of expenses? > > If 100 people on average show up to spectate at a boys game and 10 on average show up for the girls games, you only need 110 equal seats, right? Just put 10 at the girls field. > > Also, why do football fields get more seats than basketball? > > I think title 9 is not nearly comprehensive enough. > [@wevets](#): > > Stadiums are often multi-use facilities, there will rarely be a single-use and single-gender facility. Even so-called “football only” stadiums found on many state college campuses are also used for commencement ceremonies, concerts, lacrosse, soccer, and other events. > > One of the notable stupidities of the school in question is having two separate fields for teams of each gender. Why not have scheduling switch up who uses each field at different times? I know of at least one state university that plays both football and basketball in the same facility. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/77 "2014-04-02T20:12:56Z")
'Round here, they play basketball and hockey in the same facility! Of course it _could_ be done, but the football boosters want a dedicated field, I’d wager. They went out of their way to skirt the rules. ( I’d wager, fully knowing what they were doing.) Got caught. Got called on it. And now it’s time for them to ‘man up’, like the athletes they so admire. (Instead of whining like children!) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/78 "2014-04-02T21:06:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > If no one cared about softball, this wouldn’t have gone to court. If enough people cared about softball, they could cough up for the bleachers themselves. Seems more like there weren’t enough people who cared enough to do that - just enough to be spiteful. When we raised funds to buy a new organ for our church, I’m glad no-one came along to say “Buy one for the church in the next parish too, or out it goes”. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/79 "2014-04-02T21:40:53Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > When we raised funds to buy a new organ for our church, I’m glad no-one came along to say “Buy one for the church in the next parish too, or out it goes”. When we raised funds to buy you a keyboard cover so you could no longer type such ludicrously non-equivalent analogies, I am glad no-one came along to say “Buy one for James Patterson too, or out it goes.” ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051/80 "2014-04-02T21:46:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > When we raised funds to buy a new organ for our church, I’m glad no-one came along to say “Buy one for the church in the next parish too, or out it goes”. Wouldn’t it be more like if your church bought a new organ only for the men, and then when the women complained, put the organ into storage until they could figure out how to use it for both the men and women of the parish? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-bleachers-torn-down-after-ruling-that-girls-softball-teams-seats-must-be-equal/685051.md?page=5)