# Baseball fans, can you explain some stuff to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 28, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399 "2002-06-28T15:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@RickQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickQ)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/61 "2002-07-02T20:35:56Z")
OK, now you’ve done it. Someone is going to have to explain to me why pitchers don’t pitch every game and how come you can put a pitcher in to pitch part or all of an innings, but if you take him out, he is out for the rest of the game. Rick ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/62 "2002-07-02T20:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickQ \* > \*\*OK, now you’ve done it. Someone is going to have to explain to me why pitchers don’t pitch every game and how come you can put a pitcher in to pitch part or all of an innings, but if you take him out, he is out for the rest of the game. > > Rick \*\* Pitchers don’t pitch every game because their arms would fall off if they did. Human arms are not made to throw spheres at 90+ MPH every day (or even every week, really). Back in the olden days (pre-1900) pitchers used to pitch every day, but they didn’t throw nearly as hard as they did now (indeed, until the 1880s [I forget exactly which year]) the ball had to be thrown underhanded and until 1894, the pitching distance was only 50 ft. 5 in. (as opposed to 60 ft. 6 in. today.) You can make substituions anytime during the game when the ball is dead\*. This applies to pitchers and any other player. Thus, just like you can replace your second baseman with two outs, so too you can change your pitcher. Any player substituted for is out of the game, as per the rulebook (Rule 3.03). This applies to pitchers, as well as any other player. Yes, I know that there are two situations in which you cannot pinch hit for the batter. And I am aware that you cannot bring in a substitute pitcher for a substitute pitcher before he finishes with the batter or the inning is over. But for the most part, you can substitute anytime you want… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/63 "2002-07-02T21:31:57Z")
Well, as long as by “substituting” you mean you’re taking the player out of the game, yeah. But you can, for example, substitute Player A for Player B at third base, then just move Player B to left field. What he can’t do is leave the game completely and then come back (and if a batter bats for another player, that first player is out of the game). The reason this whole substitution rule is in place, **RickQ** , is so that a manager is forced to make his decisions carefully - he can’t just take a player out of the game and then still have him available to reenter the game in a later inning. So he’s judicious about taking guys out, removing them only if a) the replacement is clearly a better hitter or fielder or b) if the original player is hurt and cannot continue. From **zev** : > [@](#): > > And I am aware that you cannot bring in a substitute pitcher for a substitute pitcher before he finishes with the batter or the inning is over. I’m confused on this one. A reliever can’t relieve another reliever if that first reliever is in the middle of pitching to a batter? Say Buddy Groom of the Orioles has a 2-1 count on Scott Rolen. Can’t Mike Hargrove - in theory - take Groom out and put Rick Bauer in to finish pitching to Rolen? Of course, Groom couldn’t then come back to pitch to the next guy, but maybe Bauer would have a better chance of getting Rolen out. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/64 "2002-07-02T21:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* > > I’m confused on this one. A reliever can’t relieve another reliever if that first reliever is in the middle of pitching to a batter? Say Buddy Groom of the Orioles has a 2-1 count on Scott Rolen. Can’t Mike Hargrove - in theory - take Groom out and put Rick Bauer in to finish pitching to Rolen? Of course, Groom couldn’t then come back to pitch to the next guy, but maybe Bauer would have a better chance of getting Rolen out. Just curious. \*\* No. You missed the extra use of the word substitute. Let’s use the Yankees, my favorite team. The Yankees are in the field and Roger Clemens is pitching. In the middle of the at bat, with a 0-1 count, Joe Torre comes out of the dugout and has Steve Karsay come in. Karsay comes in and the count remains 0-1. Now, suppose, Karsay throws two wild pitches and it is evident that he cannot find home plate with a road map and a GPS system. Torre would love to pop out of the dugout, signal for Ramiro Mendoza and get Karsay the heck out of there. Unfortuantely, he can’t. When a substitute pitcher comes in, he has to pitch until the batter at bat is retired, reaches base, or the inning is over. It is the substitute who cannot be substituted for. (Rule 3.05(b) ). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/65 "2002-07-02T21:58:49Z")
I’m sorry **dantheman** , I misunderstood your question. A relief pitcher cannot be substituted for while pitching to his first batter, as in the example I gave. On any subsequent batter, he can be replaced whenever… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/66 "2002-07-02T23:52:10Z")
It comes up so rarely that I just wasn’t sure how it was supposed to be handled (good thing I’m not an ump). What if - to belabor the point - Karsay was injured while pitching to that first batter? I gues that would be the one exception to that rule; at that point, if he was unable to continue to pitch to that first batter, he’d have to be replaced. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/67 "2002-07-02T23:56:49Z")
[By the way, **RickQ** , these messages should tell you one thing for sure: No matter how closely you follow the sport of baseball, there are going to be countless things that will escape your notice, even if you watch games every day. So don’t feel bad if you don’t know all there is to know about baseball - we’re all in a similar boat!] ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/68 "2002-07-02T23:58:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Great Dave \* > \*\*Thanks, storyteller, but why is it easier for a lefty batter to hit a RHP than a LHP? Easier to see the ball, or angle that the ball takes to the plate? \*\* (generalization to follow) Dave, ``` A righthander's curveball breaks to his left due to the rotation. The reverse applies to a lefty. Most hitters find it easier to hit a ball breaking in toward them than away from them. A lefty hitter thus finds it easier to hit the righty's curveball since it comes toward him . That's the main reason. ``` ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/69 "2002-07-03T02:12:40Z")
On the subject of why pitchers don’t pitch every day: Remember in the 2001 Series, when Curt Schilling pitched a pair of games with only two days off between them? That was the first time in his _entire career_ he had had to pitch two games that close together. (I got my ticket to the 4th of July game in Memphis! Woo-hoo!) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/70 "2002-07-03T02:33:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*What if - to belabor the point - Karsay was injured while pitching to that first batter? I gues that would be the one exception to that rule; at that point, if he was unable to continue to pitch to that first batter, he’d have to be replaced. \*\* If the pitcher is injured and unable to continue, he can be replaced. Below is Rule 3.05, with the relevant part bolded: > [@](#): > > 3.05 > (a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire in chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire in chief, incapacitates him from pitching. \*\*(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire in chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher. \*\*© If an improper substitution is made for the pitcher, the umpire shall direct the proper pitcher to return to the game until the provisions of this rule are fulfilled. If the improper pitcher is permitted to pitch, any play that results is legal. The improper pitcher becomes the proper pitcher as soon as he makes his first pitch to the batter, or as soon as any runner is put out. If a manager attempts to remove a pitcher in violation of Rule 3.05 © the umpire shall notify the manager of the offending club that it cannot be done. If, by chance, the umpire in chief has, through oversight, announced the incoming improper pitcher, he should still correct the situation before the improper pitcher pitches. Once the improper pitcher delivers a pitch he becomes the proper pitcher. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/71 "2002-07-03T03:04:30Z")
Close, **jackelope**. He pitched them on 3 days rest. Actually, he pitched two games on 3 days rest. He started Game 1 (on Saturday), Game 3 (on Wednesday), and Game 7 (on Sunday). That’s why he was getting tired in the 6th-7th inning of both those games. He’s usually a workhorse and complete games aren’t un-common for him. As far as pitching one day after another, what people are talking about (for anyone who’s wondering) is _starting_ pitchers. It’s not terribly uncommon for relievers to make appearences two or even three days in a row, depending on how many pitches they threw. The interesting thing about this is, until the 70s, most baseball teams had a 4 man starting rotation. The change to the 5 man rotation has probably had a number of effects. Some people claim that the 5 man rotation (plus expansion, among other reasons) is one reason hitting is way up in the last 20+ years. They blame dilution in the pitching pool. Additionally, that has changed significantly the chances of players arriving at certain records or milestones. For example, the last pitcher to win 30 games in a season was Denny McLain in 1968 (he won 31). In a 4 man rotation, a staff ace will get over 40 starts, making a 30 game season, if not likely, much more feasable. I mention this because there was great excitement when Schilling was on pace to win 30 for a couple of months this year - but a couple of bad games and _blammo_! No shot at 30. 300 wins used to be considered a yardstick for the Hall of fame, but people are needing to start re-adjusting. 250 is probably more realistic now. People talk about records that can _never_ be broken. Because of the changes, pitching records are the most common of the truly unbreakable ones. Uh, I’ve gone on enough. I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/72 "2002-07-03T05:11:25Z")
Ahh yes. The record least likely to be broken, in my opinion, is pitching decisions. Which is held by (okay, I’ll put it in spoiler if you want to guess)Cy Young, with a career record of 511-316. Either wins or losses alone would be hard to break. And his total innings stat is also remarkable, at 7356. Of cousre, he played in the bridge between the 19th Centurey and the Modern Era. Which leads me to my next question- when did the modern era start? 1900? ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/73 "2002-07-03T05:36:57Z")
I have heard the term “modern era” used several times. The traditional use, as I understand it, is that baseball’s modern era started in 1901 with the introduction of the American League. There are a number of “eras” (as opposed to ERAs - insert groan here) in baseball, some of which occured at the same time: the dead ball era, for example, describes the time from the beginning of baseball up until about the 20’s. Frank Baker, who played at that time, was known as “Home Run Baker”. His best year, he hit 12. You’re right about the likelyhood of that record ever being broken. But there are others. Does anyone want to guess what the single season win record is, and who owns it? I was astounded when I found out. Genuine guesses - no cheating and looking it up. This too, is a record that will never, ever be broken. No one will ever even get close. ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/74 "2002-07-03T05:38:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Linus Van Pelt \* > **I have heard the term “modern era” used several times.** Pardon me. I meant to say I’ve heard the term used several ways. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/75 "2002-07-03T12:05:01Z")
Linus, Chesbro won 41 for the Yankees c. 1903. I think Radbourne won around 70 in the 1800s? WAG 69, maybe c. 1883? ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/76 "2002-07-03T12:15:11Z")
Now there’s a fan who knows his baseball. Radbourne won 59 in 1884. Amazing from todays standard. And you’re right about Chesbro - 1904, however. That does give him the modern era single season record. Of course, pitchers were still throwing both ends of a double header well into the “modern era” , so the numbers are still kind of inflated. I did have to cheat to get those exact numbers. Baseball Archive - gotta love it. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/77 "2002-07-03T14:09:03Z")
Of course, the interesting thing about Chesbro in 1904 is that he had the monster year, then blew the chance for the Highlanders (later Yankees) first pennant with an errant spitball (legal at the time) on the last day of the season. Even more obscure question for you, **Linus Van Pelt** (since you were there…) Snoopy was chasing Babe Ruth’s home run record at the same time that Hank Aaron was. Why did Hank beat Snoopy to the record? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/78 "2002-07-03T14:14:48Z")
The justification for worrying about errors seems entirely circular to me, since no one has suggested how they help “understand” a game - or, more to the point, why anyone needs to “understand” anything more than the final score. Who the hell cares how many errors you rack up if you **win** , which, after all, is what this little endeavor is about? It’s nothing from nothing, just a particularly acute form of mental masturbation. And a practical question: who decides that it’s an error, in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/79 "2002-07-03T14:22:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OxyMoron \* > \*\*The justification for worrying about errors seems entirely circular to me, since no one has suggested how they help “understand” a game - or, more to the point, why anyone needs to “understand” anything more than the final score. Who the hell cares how many errors you rack up if you **win** , which, after all, is what this little endeavor is about? It’s nothing from nothing, just a particularly acute form of mental masturbation. \*\* 😕 > [@](#): > > \*\* > And a practical question: who decides that it’s an error, in the first place? \*\* The official scorer. Every game has one. The official scorer is usually a member of the press, but not always. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399/80 "2002-07-03T14:24:05Z")
Well, the official scorekeeper decides whether it’s an error. I think the rule of thumb (in general) is that if the fielder actually touches the ball and fails to field it, it’s usually an error - although a line drive that bounces off a fielder’s glove won’t be an error, as it would likely be deemed too tough to catch. Throwing errors, of course, are a little easier to give out - if the shortstop throws the ball to the first baseman to get the batter/runner out and his throw pulls the first baseman off the base, then the shortstop’s given an error - and if the throw sails into the first row of the stands, it’s an error, too. (Of course, sometimes an error will be given to the first baseman, as the scorekeeper will say that the first baseman should have caught the throw from the shortstop.) Now, as to why the errors are important - they’re not as important as runs or hits, of course, but they give you an idea of how well the team fielded. There’s plenty of emphasis on hitting and pitching, but you’re not going to win many games if you commit, say, 4 errors a game as a team. Errors are listed with runs and hits mostly out of tradition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-can-you-explain-some-stuff-to-me/116399.md?page=5)