# baseball fans: opinions on bat flips **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 5, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285 "2015-07-05T00:22:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/41 "2015-07-08T16:03:17Z")
Who really cares? I think that baseball is the most traditionally “restrained” of the major sports in terms of the amount of in-game celebration, and I would like to see it stay that way, but I don’t think the occasional bat flip is in any way endangering that status when you see how NFL and soccer guys celebrate scoring. Of course, getting hot under the collar about the new breed of player not respecting tradition has also been part of baseball culture since about 1876, so the people complaining about bat flips are also carrying on a time-honored custom. WRT the hijack that seems to now dominate the thread: Brushing back batters: OK, an essential part of the game. I wouldn’t mind seeing some restrictions on the amount of body armor batters can wear in the interest of shifting some power back to the pitcher. Deliberately plunking guys on the butt because their teammate did something good and/or broke the “unwritten rules”: stupid, but an established part of the game. I would like to see it fade away but am not holding my breath. Deliberately throwing at the batter’s head: Completely unacceptable under any circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/42 "2015-07-08T16:08:19Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Brushing back batters: OK, an essential part of the game. I wouldn’t mind seeing some restrictions on the amount of body armor batters can wear in the interest of shifting some power back to the pitcher. This might be very slightly more persuasive if this weren’t already a pitcher’s era. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/43 "2015-07-08T16:12:41Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Deliberately throwing at the batter’s head: Completely unacceptable under any circumstance. I dont think anyone would disagree with this… ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/44 "2015-07-08T18:45:19Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > I dont think anyone would disagree with this… Gibson, Drysdale, Maglie. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/45 "2015-07-08T18:52:43Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Agian… sure ok… you forgot Ray Chapman for the irrelvant tragedy exacta… > > This thread is an Izzy Alcantrara reference away from going up like the first little pig’s hut… Jesus H Christ. Somewhere in there you forgot to point out exactly what the difference is between being hit in the head with a baseball – which has ended a fuckton more careers than just Ray Chapman’s – and getting hit in the head otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/46 "2015-07-08T19:09:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Somewhere in there you forgot to point out exactly what the difference is between being hit in the head with a baseball – which has ended a fuckton more careers than just Ray Chapman’s – and getting hit in the head otherwise. Somewhere in there you forgot to mention where I mentioned anything ABOUT intentionally hitting someone in the head. Seriously I feel like nobody read the fucking post. I said hitting someone in the ass or thigh will fucking hurt but send a message… and I am ok with that. I feel that a shot to the ass or thigh is not life threatening. I never mentioned ANYONE getting hit in the head being ok. Frankly I thought that was understood, but in case not, let me state for the record that intentionally hitting someone in the head is not ok, ever. I also am against child abuse, arson, rape, terrorism, homophobia, kicking puppies, and rape. … I am also against puppy raping. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/47 "2015-07-08T19:15:58Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s one of those things where if you’re not steeped in the cultural mindset, it just won’t make any sense, because it doesn’t make any sense. Pitchers are babies, basically, but the culture is such that acting like a baby in this way is the old school, which makes it macho and tough. > > You can dress it up and apotheose it by talking about the Old Days and Bob Gibson and whatever, but the way to understand it is to think about how little boys act, and that’s what we’re talking about it. Pitchers used to get angry and throw the ball at batters’ faces if they didn’t like the way the batters were acting, and that used to be something most people in baseball accepted as normal behavior. See, home plate is supposed to “belong” to the pitcher – “Mine!” – so if the batter is hanging out too close to it, that makes the pitcher mad. And once the pitcher is ready to throw, it’s time to go, so if the batter steps away from the plate because he’s not ready, that makes the pitcher mad. And if the pitcher gives up a home run, that makes the pitcher mad, but if the batter watches where the ball is going, or celebrates his hit, or looks at the pitcher even though the pitcher is looking at him - “Stop looking at me!” - that \*really \*makes the pitcher mad. And if the next batter up looks like he’s getting ready for his at-bat by watching the pitcher’s timing and taking his practice swings just when the ball gets to home plate, that [REALLY](http://lubbockonline.com/stories/020802/pro_020802098.shtml#.VZwcZflViko) makes the pitcher mad. > > And when the pitcher gets mad, he tries to hurt the batter, or tries to hurt the next batter, by basically throwing a rock at his head and saying I’m not throwing it at you, I’m just throwing it over there and it’s your fault if you get in the way. > > Tough guys, the lot of them! This is a great post. I can’t think of any other context where using a weapon to attack somebody who is forbidden to retaliate from 90 feet away, all because he _hurt your feelings while playing a game,_ is considered the “tough” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/48 "2015-07-08T19:22:56Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Somewhere in there you forgot to mention where I mentioned anything ABOUT intentionally hitting someone in the head. Seriously I feel like nobody read the fucking post. > > I said hitting someone in the ass or thigh will fucking hurt but send a message… and I am ok with that. I feel that a shot to the ass or thigh is not life threatening. I never mentioned ANYONE getting hit in the head being ok. Well, as long as we’re all in agreement that the ball always goes right where the pitcher tells it to, we’re all set here. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/49 "2015-07-08T19:28:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Well, as long as we’re all in agreement that the ball always goes right where the pitcher tells it to, we’re all set here. The fact that it doesn’t go where the pitcher wants it to makes intent entirely irrelvant doesn’t it? You are as likely to accidentally get hit in the head with a poorly thrown fastball down the pipe as you are as likely to get hit in the head with a poorly thrown beanball. If it doesn’t go where the pitcher wants, it doesn’t go where the pitcher wants regardless of intent. Tony Conigliaro and Ray Chapman (who for some reason immediately come to mind) being two examples of players being unintentionally hit in the head with tragic results. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/50 "2015-07-08T19:36:05Z")
I’m not a professor of sports science, but it’s my understanding that backdoor sliders that miss the edge of the plate cause fewer concussions than “90 mph cheese” thrown at the guy’s back. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/51 "2015-07-08T19:42:21Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m not a professor of sports science, but it’s my understanding that backdoor sliders that miss the edge of the plate cause fewer concussions than “90 mph cheese” thrown at the guy’s back. …and I’m not a physician, but I understand the thigh and ass, to be down farther on the physical anatomy than the back. By that same token, I’m pretty sure that Carl Mays and Jack Hamilton weren’t throwing backdoor sliders that missed the edge of the plate because that would take a seriously ridiculous ephus like break to go from a back door slider off the edge of the plate to hitting Conigliaro in the fucking face. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/52 "2015-07-08T19:47:49Z")
That’s what my point was, also. You seem angry, George. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/53 "2015-07-08T19:51:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > That’s what my point was, also. You’re point was that a pitch not thrown to spot can do damage regardless of intent? Sweet, we agree, my work here is done. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You seem angry, George. They didn’t call Mordecai Brown “Three Finger” because he had extra digits… ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/54 "2015-07-08T19:54:46Z")
My point was that throwing a fastball at someone makes it much more likely that you’re going to seriously injure them than not throwing a fastball at them. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/55 "2015-07-08T20:02:41Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > My point was that throwing a fastball at someone makes it much more likely that you’re going to seriously injure them than not throwing a fastball at them. So for evidence of such, you gave me a player who was NOT thrown at but got hit anyway and was seriously injured. I gave you another example of a player who was NOT thrown at but was… well… as seriously injured as you can get, I s’pose. The type of pitches that hit Conigliaro and Chapman, I’m not sure of but I assume, were fastballs. Backdoor slider being a complete non-sequitur based on the type of pitch that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/56 "2015-07-08T20:05:22Z")
No, I didn’t. I think you’re having some trouble following the plot, to be honest with you. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/57 "2015-07-08T20:14:26Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > No, I didn’t. I think you’re having some trouble following the plot, to be honest with you. Yeah maybe so… please do explain. You said a pitch thrown down at someone’s ass is more likely to clock someone in the head than a high fast ball meant to go over the dish or, hell, even inside but not meant to hit. You gave me Conigliaro who was unintentionally hit with what I assume to be a high, hard fastball but not meant to hit him and then a back door slider (?). I gave Chapman as another example of someone who got unintentionally hit to say yeah, pitches get away and can do some real damage regardless of intent. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/58 "2015-07-08T22:38:14Z")
First of all, I’m a little confused by the complaints that the inside part of the plate has been taken away or armor should be reduced or batters have an unfair advantage. If you’ll all have a quick look at the stats, pitchers are in control of Major League Baseball right now. The average team is only scoring about 4.1 runs a game right now, which is pretty low. Secondly, baseball has more celebration now than it used to. It just does. Bat flips aren’t the only thing; watch a walk-off win in the regular season from, say, 1985, versus today, and you will be stunned by the difference. A walk-off win now is celebrated like the team just won the World Series. Frankly, this is a cultural shift that isn’t stopping anytime soon and I cannot think of a good reason why it should. If a guy hits your best pitch 425 feet, and flips his bat, man up and throw better pitches. Conversely, if a pitcher strikes out the side and wants to pump his fist a little, the other team shouldn’t shriek and cry like babies (which they will currently do.) If you just struck out three major league hitters damn right you can pump your first if you want to, and if they don’t like it they should’ve taken more batting practice. This sort of thing is of course different from case to case. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/59 "2015-07-08T23:12:36Z")
This whole conversation becomes moot if we confine it to _real_ baseball, where pitchers also bat, and so take\* their \*chances. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285/60 "2015-07-09T02:36:39Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > This whole conversation becomes moot if we confine it to _real_ baseball, where pitchers also bat, and so take\* their \*chances. Hear, hear. (I.m loudly beating on a table and twirling my whiskers) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-fans-opinions-on-bat-flips/724285.md?page=4)