# Baseball July 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [July 2, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737 "2009-07-02T20:43:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/81 "2009-07-08T19:15:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > **I don’t think Ricciardi can get good value for him.** I live in fear of JP making a trade along the lines of the Vince Carter deal(or the thankfully aborted Dany Heatley trade, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/82 "2009-07-08T19:25:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > :rolleyes: The evidence is right there on the field. Or not, in this case. > > But do you disagree that it was _necessary_? That was the question. > > The only support you’re offering for your views is numerical. What else can one conclude? A reasonable person would conclude he’s arguing that Manny’s production on the field outweighed his shenanigans, and **not** that “sports are only about the numbers” for him. (And, there are two Red Sox World Series titles that back up his conclusion.) But, as you’ve repeatedly demonstrated on the boards, you seem to have a weird, deep-seated need to separate all baseball fans into “people who truly love and understand baseball” and “soulless stat geeks who only care about the numbers.” I mean, God forbid someone mention homers and OBP when deciding if a player is worth having on your team! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/83 "2009-07-08T19:26:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The idea in sports is to win games. Halladay helps win games. The idea of winning games is to win _championships_. Keeping a bunch of stiffs around Halladay demonstrably won’t do that, but trading him for some talent just might, in a couple of years. > [@](#): > > You can’t simply surrender and go from being a 56-106 team to the World Series in one year. It can be damn fast, though, if you’re smart about it. I mentioned the Marlins already. > [@](#): > > there’s value in being a bit over .500 (As they are with him) versus being a bit under it (as they would be without.) Maybe I’m spoiled here, but I don’t see the value in that. Either one means “pretty mediocre”. > [@](#): > > Truth be told, one of the reasons I don’t want Halladay traded is simple; **I don’t think Ricciardi can get good value for him.** Now THAT makes complete sense. 😉 > [@](#): > > When has a GM ever kept his job for so long with such mediocre results? Matt Millen, but that’s in a different sport. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/84 "2009-07-08T19:28:57Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > A reasonable person Such as yourself. 😉 > [@](#): > > would conclude he’s arguing that Manny’s production on the field outweighed his shenanigans, and **not** that “sports are only about the numbers” for him. And yet the numbers are the only evidence he’s offering for that, and he’s refusing to consider the shenanigans at all. So, as I said, what else can one conclude? > [@](#): > > (And, there are two Red Sox World Series titles that back up his conclusion.) Yes, Manny won them both singlehandedly. How could I forget? > [@](#): > > But, as you’ve repeatedly demonstrated on the boards Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/85 "2009-07-08T19:38:33Z")
BTW - the Red Sox have certainly sorely missed Manny. Why, they were an entire inning away from winning the pennant without him last year, and they’re barely in first place at all these days. The cries of anguish from the clubhouse and the fan base are truly piteous. And those poor Dodgers only moved out front by, what, 7 games with him out of the lineup this year. They’d no doubt have clinched the NL West already if he’d been in the lineup for those 50 games. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/86 "2009-07-08T19:48:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Such as yourself. 😉 > > And yet the numbers are the only evidence he’s offering for that, and he’s refusing to consider the shenanigans at all. So, as I said, what else can one conclude? And in your posts about Manny in this thread, you never once mentioned his hitting. Should I conclude from that that you feel that his ability to slug has NO impact on whether he should be considered as an asset to your team? Of course not! (Or maybe you do feel that, which would be bizarre.) He simply offered some counter-evidence to your point. > [@](#): > > Yes, Manny won them both singlehandedly. How could I forget? Yeah, because that’s exactly what I said. :rolleyes: Of course he didn’t win them singlehandedly, but he was one of the most important parts of the team both season, and there’s a good chance they wouldn’t have won either WS without him. > [@](#): > > Yawn. Oooh, scathing rebuttal! [Care to respond?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463423&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/87 "2009-07-08T19:58:35Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I live in fear of JP making a trade along the lines of the Vince Carter deal(or the thankfully aborted Dany Heatley trade, for that matter). Ricciardi’s not a good GM but he’s not as stupid as Rob Babcock. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/88 "2009-07-08T19:59:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > BTW - the Red Sox have certainly sorely missed Manny. Why, they were an entire inning away from winning the pennant without him last year, and they’re barely in first place at all these days. The cries of anguish from the clubhouse and the fan base are truly piteous. For someone who abhors torture, you sure do like to commit it against logic. How does last year have any specific bearing on how the 2004 or 2007 seasons would have gone with a less-productive outfielder in the lineup? > [@](#): > > And those poor Dodgers only moved out front by, what, 7 games with him out of the lineup this year. They’d no doubt have clinched the NL West already if he’d been in the lineup for those 50 games. So, what you’re saying is, if Matt Kemp had missed 50 games, and Manny had been playing and slugging .600, and the Dodgers had the same 7 game lead, you’d conclude that Kemp wasn’t an asset for your team while he was playing? Because, your sarcastic hyperbole aside, that’s where your logic goes. Don’t get me wrong; Manny shot his way out of Boston and I wasn’t all that sorry to see him go. And my opinion of him moved to “strong dislike” with his drug suspension. I’d much rather cheer for Jason Bay. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/89 "2009-07-08T20:02:54Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > And in your posts about Manny in this thread, you never once mentioned his hitting. Indirectly, yes I have, by saying it isn’t worth the negatives he brings. Do try to pay more attention, please. > [@](#): > > there’s a good chance they wouldn’t have won either WS without him. No way to be sure either way, is there? But I did point out last year’s results (you could scroll up and read, while you’re paying attention). Without him the last 2 months, and even with all their injuries, they still were just an inning away from going to the WS _yet again_. Wouldn’t you have bet on them to beat the Phils? Hmm, now how could that possibly have been? :dubious: You made the claim about his central importance to winning 2 Series titles. If your claim doesn’t hold up to much inspection, that isn’t _my_ problem. > [@](#): > > Oooh, scathing rebuttal! It was appropriate to the level of your threadshitting here. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/90 "2009-07-08T20:08:32Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > How does last year have any specific bearing on how the 2004 or 2007 seasons would have gone with a less-productive outfielder in the lineup? Because you can \*certainly \*compare last year’s Sox with Manny vs. with J-Bay. Duh. Any other factors are as well-controlled as they ever get. > [@](#): > > So, what you’re saying is, if Matt Kemp had missed 50 games, and Manny had been playing and slugging .600, and the Dodgers had the same 7 game lead, you’d conclude that Kemp wasn’t an asset for your team while he was playing? Because, your sarcastic hyperbole aside, that’s where your logic goes. That’s YOUR logic, friend. YOUR attempt to claim how his hitting matters so much to his team. Here’s a hint you might find useful in the future: Baseball is a team game. It isn’t individual performances, or the sum of individual performances. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/91 "2009-07-08T20:23:28Z")
And in a nice break from the flaming, good news for Blue Jay fans! [B.J. Ryan Released!](http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090708&content_id=5764632&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) The Jays are still on the hook for the rest of Ryan’s gargantuan contract, but that money’s a sunk cost. There’s two positives here: 1. Ryan, who was not one of the 15 (and maybe more) best pitchers in Toronto’s organization, will necessarily be replaced by someone better, or at least with some upside, and 2. This further illustrates the stupidity of Ricciardi’s original decision to sign Ryan, which perhaps will contribute to Ricciardi’s dismissal in the off season. Or sooner, God willing. It’s not Ryan’s fault he wrecked his elbow, of course. He tried his best. But giving a $47 million contract to a part-time pitcher whose delivery shrieked “Arm injury coming! Probably in the elbow! Call Dr. Jobe now!” was not a smart move. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/92 "2009-07-08T21:09:48Z")
Give Ricciardi credit for effectively publicly admitting a mistake there. It so rarely happens that one tends to wonder why. Anyway, IIRC they did need a closer, and Ryan was the only plausible FA at that position. FA pitchers’ contracts are crazy all around anyway, though, and his really wasn’t out of line. Hate the game, not the player, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/93 "2009-07-08T21:42:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It was appropriate to the level of your threadshitting here. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Sports are only about the numbers for you, are they? Sad.” :rolleyes: But, I apologize to the rest of the thread for letting myself get dragged through the mud. I’d much rather talk about Kevin Youkilis, a player about whom I heard much talk of overachievement after 2008. Even with his current 2-for-26 slump, he still has a higher OPS this year than last year, made all more important by David Ortiz’s execrable start. On the one hand, I delight in knowing that the Yankees are still looking up at the Sox even after going 11-2. On the other, there’s no denying that this is still a tight three-team race (sorry, Jays fans!). The Rays actually have a better run differential than either the Sox or Yankees! (Yeah, Bartlett and Zobrist will come back to earth, but they’ve also stayed within striking distance without Kazmir.) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/94 "2009-07-08T22:52:37Z")
In news on retired players: [Lenny Dykstra Bankrupt](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4313487) The really pertinent quote: > [@Reuters News Agency](#): > > The 46-year-old has no more than $50,000 of assets and between $10 million and $50 million of liabilities, according to a petition filed Tuesday with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Central District of California. This isn’t the first and won’t be the last former pro athlete who made millions and then blew it all. I’ve read from several sources that more than HALF of all NFL players go bankrupt after their playing careers (granting most have brief careers and so won’t make the money Nails did.) I find this fascinating. How do athletes do this, and why is it so often athletes you hear this about? Is it the culture of pro athletes? Education deficiencies? Dykstra in the last two years of his last contract - which he didn’t even play in, due to injury - made $12 million. Assume it’s $7 million after the taxman has his way. If you gave me $7 million I’d be set for the rest of my life and most of the principal would still be there when I died. How can the man have only $50K in assets? I have more than that in assets AFTER debt, and I’m just another wage slave. Isn’t that amazing? How could you possibly take on the responsibility of having that much money and NOT think “the first thing I should do is stash half of this in the safest conceivable investments known to man”? ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/95 "2009-07-09T03:49:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In news on retired players: > > … > > Isn’t that amazing? How could you possibly take on the responsibility of having that much money and NOT think “the first thing I should do is stash half of this in the safest conceivable investments known to man”? I don’t think that’s a phenomenon unique to athletes; I’ve read that something like 30% of millionaire lottery winners go broke after a few years. I’ll bet that many pro athletes who suddenly find themselves millionaires have little skill at managing money. Combine that with a peer group for whom profligate spending is no doubt common, and you get cases like this. Still, I’m with you. I can’t fathom frittering away that much money. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/96 "2009-07-09T03:58:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In news on retired players: > > [Lenny Dykstra Bankrupt](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4313487) > > The really pertinent quote: > > This isn’t the first and won’t be the last former pro athlete who made millions and then blew it all. I’ve read from several sources that more than HALF of all NFL players go bankrupt after their playing careers (granting most have brief careers and so won’t make the money Nails did.) > > I find this fascinating. How do athletes do this, and why is it so often athletes you hear this about? Is it the culture of pro athletes? Education deficiencies? Dykstra in the last two years of his last contract - which he didn’t even play in, due to injury - made $12 million. Assume it’s $7 million after the taxman has his way. If you gave me $7 million I’d be set for the rest of my life and most of the principal would still be there when I died. How can the man have only $50K in assets? I have more than that in assets AFTER debt, and I’m just another wage slave. > > Isn’t that amazing? How could you possibly take on the responsibility of having that much money and NOT think “the first thing I should do is stash half of this in the safest conceivable investments known to man”? Have you read anything recently about Lenny Dykstra? This is not a rational or smart guy. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/97 "2009-07-09T03:59:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In news on retired players: > > [Lenny Dykstra Bankrupt](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4313487) > > The really pertinent quote: > > This isn’t the first and won’t be the last former pro athlete who made millions and then blew it all. I’ve read from several sources that more than HALF of all NFL players go bankrupt after their playing careers (granting most have brief careers and so won’t make the money Nails did.) > > I find this fascinating. How do athletes do this, and why is it so often athletes you hear this about? Is it the culture of pro athletes? Education deficiencies? Dykstra in the last two years of his last contract - which he didn’t even play in, due to injury - made $12 million. Assume it’s $7 million after the taxman has his way. If you gave me $7 million I’d be set for the rest of my life and most of the principal would still be there when I died. How can the man have only $50K in assets? I have more than that in assets AFTER debt, and I’m just another wage slave. > > Isn’t that amazing? How could you possibly take on the responsibility of having that much money and NOT think “the first thing I should do is stash half of this in the safest conceivable investments known to man”? The funniest part about Dykstra is that he was on Philadelphia sports talk shows before the economic downturn offering economic advice and selling himself as a stock market mover and shaker. Ah, I see the article mentions this. I found it pretty hard to swallow- I mean a few years before his claim to fame was opening a chain of car washes. I guess his magazine never hit it big and he becomes another victim of the 2008/2009 economic downturn. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/98 "2009-07-09T05:33:11Z")
Not Bragging or in anyway whatsoever pointing out anything that would in any manner subject the universe towards malicious Karma, just a simple news report… Rockies back within one game of the NL wild card 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/99 "2009-07-09T10:00:35Z")
[This SI story](http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/index.htm) covers the bankruptcy story, and the reasons for it, very well. > [@](#): > > • By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce. > > • Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. > > • Numerous retired MLB players have been similarly ruined, and the current economic crisis is taking a toll on some active players as well. Last month 10 current and former big leaguers—including outfielders Johnny Damon of the Yankees and Jacoby Ellsbury of the Red Sox and pitchers Mike Pelfrey of the Mets and Scott Eyre of the Phillies—discovered that at least some of their money is tied up in the $8 billion fraud allegedly perpetrated by Texas financier Robert Allen Stanford. Pelfrey told the New York Post that 99% of his fortune is frozen; Eyre admitted last month that he was broke, and the team quickly agreed to advance a portion of his $2 million salary. A combination of thinking the good times will never end, taking bad investment advice, and lots and lots of leeches. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737/100 "2009-07-09T11:55:56Z")
Look who has the longest winning streak in baseball: The D-backs! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-july-2009/501737.md?page=6)