# Baseball Offseason Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985 "2010-11-09T01:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/221 "2010-12-05T23:18:39Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Question: How would posters rate Gonzalez’s defense? Well, he’s won two Gold Gloves, so he must be good, right? 🙂 Seriously, he’s always seemed very capable to me, based on my subjective observations, and he is often praised as a good defender by journalists and by the stats guys. The Baseball Prospectus folks describe his defense as very good but “not quite Keith Hernandez,” and called him a player who “can save 15 to 20 runs a year on defense.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/222 "2010-12-05T23:19:08Z")
Dunn signed with the White Sox. The Tiger GM said once they got Fernandez, they could not pursue Dunn since they need the same position. and neither is much of a fielder. The Tiger blog I get says the Tigers are still after Werth. Ordonez has not signed either so money is available for one of them. But Magglio is not worth 15 mill. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/223 "2010-12-05T23:20:00Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Drew has been a spectacular player other than this past season. He’s been a consistent offensive producer on the too-rare occasions when he’s been able to stay healthy, but where do you get “spectacular” from? :dubious: Boston paid him twice as much as any other team was willing to go, spending dollars they could have used to keep Bay or Martinez or even sign Teixeira. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/224 "2010-12-05T23:32:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That Werth contract, though, is huge. Werth has, admittedly, improved fairly consistently over the past 5 years. His WARP over the past five seasons he’s played has risen steadily: 1.6; 3.2; 4.6; 5.6; 7.0. Still, that’s a lot of money over a long period. Given that Werth will be 32 next year and seems to have just peaked, this is in fact the absolute worst time to offer a contract like that. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/225 "2010-12-06T00:59:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He’s been a consistent offensive producer on the too-rare occasions when he’s been able to stay healthy, but where do you get “spectacular” from? :dubious: Boston paid him twice as much as any other team was willing to go, spending dollars they could have used to keep Bay or Martinez or even sign Teixeira. Drew has played over 135 games in three of his 4 years in Boston. While he isn’t been Cal Ripken, since he has been a Red Sox he has been reasonably healthy. He might not have been spectacular, but he has certainly been worth his contract, something that Bay and Martinez are unlikely to achieve. I won’t speculate as to if they could have signed him cheaper, as it is impossible to know exactly what other teams offered. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/226 "2010-12-06T01:13:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Short answer: They have the means to win it all right now, every year, without having to wait for 2015. By not paying the cash (which they have) to keep their lineup able to win it all this year and every year, they never win it all. > > There is some business sense to keeping your franchise always good enough to be interesting, to sell all those tickets and keep up those cable viewer ratings, but while keeping a cap on your #1 budget item, player salaries. But for the more serious fans, it sucks - your team is not allowed to win. Over time, the lack of championships destroys the franchise’s ability to keep the ticket sales and cable viewer ratings up, either. Just look at what that strategy has done for the Bruins. Now the Red Sox are trying it too. > > You know what the Sox did on the field last year with holes in the lineup, including LF. Now imagine what Bay would have done to fill one of those holes. Now imagine what Martinez would have done in 2011, instead of some kid who’s already washed out with 2 other organizations, in both the order and behind the plate. > > You can wait for some rookie to pan out in 2016 if you like, and you can even think that being always pretty good but never quite good enough is something to cheer for. I say fuck that shit, I want to win and I want to win now, and a Series trophy or three is worth a few future years of potential losing. And I think the players agree, don’t you? This is a really strange attitude from a fan of a team that has won two world series in the last 7 years. The Red Sox built a team capable of winning a world series last year. You can they were capable in that they won 89 games in baseball’s toughest division even with half their lineup hurt at any given time and two of their co-aces suffering major regression. require a bad plan. A bad result doesn’t I’m hard pressed to thing how having Jason Bay would have helped much as he had just as much a lost season as Ellsbury. They didn’t think Victor Martinez (I’m sure what you mean by behind the plate as Victor was horrible behind it) and as a 1b/dh he is merely mediocre. One more correction, Saltalamacia has only washed out of one organization, unless you count being the center piece of a trade for Mark Teixeira as washing out I’m thrilled my team finally has someone capable of building a long term strategy in charge instead of just throwing lots of money at Jason Bay, because he hit a lot of home-runs last year and we need to win right now. Oh and I’d also be more than happy to trade him straight up for JD Drew. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/227 "2010-12-06T01:29:52Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > This is a really strange attitude from a fan of a team that has won two world series in the last 7 years. That may sound like a lot to someone who supports a hopeless team, but a good fan is a greedy fan, no? It could have been more, and it would only have been one if Theo had been on the job when the Beckett/Lowell deal was made (he wouldn’t have done it, and perhaps he’s still pining for his lost Hanley, changing SS’s every year). The first title wasn’t this front office’s doing, not by much. > [@](#): > > The Red Sox built a team capable of winning a world series last year. Only by counting on luck would that have heppened. The roster could have been better, without exceeding revenue either, no? > [@](#): > > I’m hard pressed to thing how having Jason Bay would have helped much as he had just as much a lost season as Ellsbury. You don’t think they’d have scored a few more runs with him in the lineup instead of Darnell McDonald or Bill Hall or Daniel Nava, or the remains of Mike Cameron? The were “built to win a World Series” by depending on Jeremy Hermida? Really now. > [@](#): > > They didn’t think Victor Martinez (I’m sure what you mean by behind the plate as Victor was horrible behind it) and as a 1b/dh he is merely mediocre. He was average defensively, and you can make up for that with hitting, which he certainly provided. > [@](#): > > One more correction, Saltalamacia has only washed out of one organization, unless you count being the center piece of a trade for Mark Teixeira as washing out He not only couldn’t start, but couldn’t even stay in the majors with either Atlanta (behind the legendary Brian McCann) or Texas (behind Bengie Molina and Taylor Teaguarden, both of whom have their Cooperstown plaques written already). Which organization are you counting as Salty not washing out from? > [@](#): > > I’m thrilled my team finally has someone capable of building a long term strategy in charge instead of just throwing lots of money at Jason Bay, because he hit a lot of home-runs last year and we need to win right now. Oh and I’d also be more than happy to trade him straight up for JD Drew. A “long term strategy”, which can, with a little luck, get a team into the playoffs before they leave for more money elsewhere, is all the small-market franchises can hope for. It’s not good for the game to have franchises’ success limited by their market size, a problem every other league has fixed, I’ll certainly agree. But as long as one is a fan of a big-revenue team, whose chief competitor is an even bigger-revenue team, I want them to quit farting around with low-minor prospects and win now and every year. Because they can. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/228 "2010-12-06T01:36:33Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Drew has played over 135 games in three of his 4 years in Boston. Much of that while hurt and therefore limited, don’t be misled by numbers. > [@](#): > > He might not have been spectacular, but he has certainly been worth his contract, something that Bay and Martinez are unlikely to achieve. While with Boston, Bay was worth Drew’s contract and Drew was worth Bay’s contract. BTW, the Gonzo deal is done. Don’t believe ALL the scuttlebutt. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/229 "2010-12-06T01:59:30Z")
Drew was as good or better than Bay the entire time they were both in Boston together, and for all that he’s been up and down with injuries a bit, has been almost exactly worth the value of his contract in his first four years in Boston. Adrian Gonzalez is done, press conference tomorrow. No official word on extension; speculation within the Sox fan community is that they may have something done in principle, but wait until after the season begins to announce it so that it doesn’t affect this season’s luxury tax calculations. Rumor is a 7 yrs @ 23 per extension to his current deal. The Werth deal is mind-boggling; Mets GM Sandy Alderson with the money quote thus far: “I thought they were trying to reduce the deficit in Washington.” Crawford has got to be looking for 8 @ 19 now, but is there anyone out there who will actually give it to him? I know I wouldn’t, but that’s partially because his value would take a hit playing the tiny LF in Fenway, and his splits vs LH with how left-handed our lineup is getting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/230 "2010-12-06T02:06:31Z")
A lefty-dominated lineup isn’t all that bad a thing if it doesn’t get extreme, and the team may have been planning for it by moving the RF wall in (in the name of "bullpen safety 🙂 ). Besides, Gonzo hits mostly to the opposite field anyway, or so we’ve been told, so he only partially counts as a lefty. Crawford can be looking for that kind of cash, but it isn’t to be had from any \*sane \*team. Which puts him in Fenway, maybe in RF with Drew moving to left, Ellsbury back in CF if his ribs ever heal, otherwise Kalish, who I’m not yet convinced is ready. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/231 "2010-12-06T02:20:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Besides, Gonzo hits mostly to the opposite field anyway, or so we’ve been told, so he only partially counts as a lefty. He certainly does go opposite field a lot, but one area where he fully counts as a lefty is against left-handed pitching. Career v. RHP: .295/.382/.537 with 1 HR every 17.3 AB Career v. LHP: .262/.338/.445 with 1 HR every 23.2 AB ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/232 "2010-12-07T02:31:27Z")
The Blue Jays have [traded](http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101206&content_id=16263712&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor) Shaun Marcum to the Brewers for double A prospect Brett Lawrie. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/233 "2010-12-07T04:03:48Z")
Absolutely baffling trade. Lawrie is a very fine, Grade A prospect, but he’s 20, played well last year but in AA, and at his age and level you can’t say he’s just a step away from the big leagues; he remains an unknown quantity. Marcum is a first class major league starting pitcher; I find it absolutely unbelievable that he would not have commanded a much higher asking price. Lawrie AND a major league bat, perhaps. What further confuses me about the move is that the team still had rather obvious holes at the major league level that need addressing. They have no third baseman, unless Jose Bautista plays there in which case they’re short an outfielder and really have no center fielder at all. First base is a gaping hole, although there’s rumours the Jays are in the world to get Carlos Pena. Catcher is unsettled; J.P. Arencibia looks good but extremely unpolished. Both of the team’s significant moves in the past while have been to acquire players, Anthony Gose and Lawrie, who are years from contribution at the big league level and in fact are far enough to represent risk. There’s nothing wrong with bolstering the mid system, but the team has really, really big holes on the big league roster and has not shown an inclination to fixing them. Rumours are also flying hot and heavy that the Jays are making a big push to get Zack Grienke. Again, I’m baffled. I love ZG, but to surrender him the rumoured price is Drabek and Snider. Drabek I understand, but Snider is the team’s best hitting prospect and, again, you’re now creating another hole, this time in the outfield, for which there is no obvious quality replacement. Greinke would be supported by a team that could be utterly woeful with the bats, which would make his acquisition pointless. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/234 "2010-12-07T05:09:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Greinke would be supported by a team that could be utterly woeful with the bats, which would make his acquisition pointless. But at least, after KC, he’d feel right at home. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Iolanthe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7bcc69/32.png) [@Iolanthe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iolanthe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/235 "2010-12-07T05:24:22Z")
> [@Kiros](#): > > The Werth deal is mind-boggling; Mets GM Sandy Alderson with the money quote thus far: “I thought they were trying to reduce the deficit in Washington.” I know it is. I can’t say I’m thrilled to death about it, but… What the Nats need most right now is some credibility with the fans. The only way that was going to happen was to sign a big ticket free agent, and Cliff Lee ain’t coming through that door. Neither is (was) Carl Crawford. Tickets sales have been dropping like flies. It isn’t the DC market per se - when the team was winning in 2005, RFK was full and rocking (literally - the bleachers swayed.) The losing in the last few years has of course driven away the casual fans, but the perceived cheapness of the very wealthy owners was fast driving away the devoted fans. No one gives a damn about the money. Not our money - why do we care about the Lerners’ bank accounts? Ordinarily yes, you’d worry about a contract like this handicapping the front office, but you have to understand that the Nats are _way_ under budget. We’ve got what’s in theory a top 4 or 5 market, and until now we’ve been spending like the Marlins. Zim is the next guy due a big pay raise, and of course he’ll get something like the Tulo contract. But everybody else? Desmond is young, Zimmermann the pitcher is young, Espinosa is still a rookie, Stras is young, Harper isn’t even here yet… We’ve got a while before we need to worry about money, and when the attendance rises, money will come in. Sure, we need pitching more than anything. We won’t compete for the wild card in 2011. But I damn well bet we will compete in 2012 & 2013. Werth will still be useful then. If we get to the postseason in the next few years no one will care if Werth’s a useless appendage in 2017. And yes, I’m sure he will be. I’d rather have Adam Dunn. But I’m trusting in Mike Rizzo so far. And Rizzo, BTW, isn’t Jim Bowden (thank god and all baseball deities.) I don’t even count the Bowden years for the Nats; he screwed the pooch so badly. Oh, and if this deal screws the market for 28 other MLB teams? Words can’t express how little I give a damn. The other teams used us as their frakkin’ farm system for years. (I say 28 teams because I exempt my beloved Red Sox. But Boston got A Gonzalez\* who’s better than Werth anyway, so I’m happy.) If the Mets, the Angels, the MFYankees, all have to pay more to get their guys? Don’t. Give. A. Damn. Because of course, part of the Nats’ problem is that we have to pay a premium in both years and money to get a top free agent. We know it. They know it. So we’ll pay it because it fits our current need, and the other GMs can piss off. \*Speaking of Gonzalez, I’ve seen it asked why the Nats didn’t trade prospects for a better player like Fielder or Gonzalez. Did you see who the Red Sox traded? Casey Kelly would be in the Nats rotation right now if we had him. If the Nats trade their prospects, they should do it for Greinke or Garza. We got Werth for “free” - our first round draft pick is protected. Nats need pitching. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/236 "2010-12-07T09:48:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You know what the Sox did on the field last year with holes in the lineup, including LF. Now imagine what Bay would have done to fill one of those holes. I must be misunderstanding something here. Bay totally sucked last year. If he had had the year he had for the Mets in 2010 for the Sox instead, you’d be calling for Theo’s head on a pike. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/237 "2010-12-07T15:38:35Z")
> [@Iolanthe](#): > > What the Nats need most right now is some credibility with the fans. The only way that was going to happen was to sign a big ticket free agent, and Cliff Lee ain’t coming through that door. Actually, rumors are floating now that the Nats will offer Lee 7 years and insane money. Maybe they thought they needed Werth to give themselves some credibility to have a shot at Lee. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/238 "2010-12-07T16:26:56Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I must be misunderstanding something here. Bay totally sucked last year. You think stadiums, lineups, and pitchers have nothing to do with batters’ performances. That must be the problem. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/239 "2010-12-07T16:37:33Z")
I think Bay sucked last year. Totally. Theo played the Mets like a flounder. “Here, eat a worm. It’s delicious.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/240 "2010-12-07T16:54:17Z")
Joining the Mets is proven in clinical testing to cause terminal suckitude in baseball players. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=13)