# Baseball Offseason Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985 "2010-11-09T01:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/301 "2010-12-10T23:21:41Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > My point being, of course, that the small sample of post-season has much less bearing on what Cliff Lee is worth than the massive sample his career numbers provide. Maybe it shouldn’t, but it _does_. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/302 "2010-12-10T23:35:53Z")
So **Elvis** , just wondering whether you’re interested in clearing up the apparent inconsistency that i noted on the last page. You have been criticizing the front office for not wanting to win, for not getting enough hitting, for their pre-season “bleating” about how the team was going to win with run prevention, and for putting together a team that was never (even without injuries) going to make the postseason. And yet Boston scored the second-highest number of runs in the whole Major Leagues, you yourself back in February expressed satisfaction with their pitching and suggested that they would win a lot of 4-2 ballgames, and you also predicted back in early April that they would win the AL Wild Card and the AL Pennant. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/303 "2010-12-11T16:35:42Z")
> [@Iolanthe](#): > > You know the Nationals won 69 games last year, not 62, right? 69 plus 6 does in fact equal 75 wins. And that’s just taking Werth into account, not the other improvements from age, experience, better defense, and Jason Marquis not totally shitting the bed in every game he pitched. 62 was just the number Storyteller used. With 69 it more obvious that a jump to 75 wins would probably not bring much in the way of increased revenue. I don’t see a whole lot of other improvements either. The Nationals weren’t a particularly young team last year, and they lost Adam Dunn’s offense. They got a couple of solid young players, but no one who is likely to become a super star. They also don’t have a young ace phenom to ride to the rescue come July. Even with Werth, it would not surprise me at all to see them them lose more games next year than they did this year. > [@](#): > > Sure you’re right, winning brings more creditability and this contract is going to hurt in 2017. But given the situation at hand, I think this was a valid decision to make. The Nats front office shouldn’t have screwed up the Dunn situation as badly as they did, but it’s done now. The alternative was to do nothing, piss off the fanbase, and continue being the cheap Lerners who are pocketing the revenue sharing and having a payroll ranked 23 out of 30 MLB teams. Below the exceedingly wealthy teams/cities like…Baltimore, Milwaukee, it is even more obvious that a jump Cincinnati. Also below the notoriously big spenders like…Minnesota. And oh yes, Tampa Bay. Dunn’s and Guzman’s money are coming off the books. Even with big arbitration raises to Lannan and Willingham, and even if they sign LaRoche to something even slightly above average, the payroll will only begin to approach the middle of the pack of MLB teams. And if this year is respectable, then the front office won’t have to pay the last place / pathetic / god-you-people-suck surcharge for 2012. Tampa, Minnesota, and Cincy all might be a player or two from a world series title, so it makes sense for them to spend money. The difference in revenue between not making the playoffs and making it is huge. I certainly don’t have a problem with the Nats spending money, but by the time they are good enough to be a contender, Werth may very well a burden rather than an asset. Spend money, but do it in ways that help the long term success of the organization instead of cripple. Invest in scouting, drafting, and developing (which to be fair they have been doing). If you want free agents to make the team seem credible at least make it short term deals, so they don’t screw you up in the long term. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/304 "2010-12-11T21:33:12Z")
Tampa not so much. They have to cut payroll to adjust to their apathetic customer base, and could not afford to keep Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, or the bullpen. It’s time once again for another cycle: a long building period that may, with luck, be followed by a brief window of competitiveness. Werth may be a worthwhile move for the Nats if only that it demonstrates to their fan base an ability and willingness to try to improve the team on the field, even if that doesn’t necessarily convert to wins right away. They do have the foundation there, they just don’t have the organizational strength after the Montreal fire sale and the Bowden years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/305 "2010-12-11T23:54:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Tampa not so much. They have to cut payroll to adjust to their apathetic customer base, and could not afford to keep Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, or the bullpen. It’s time once again for another cycle: a long building period that may, with luck, be followed by a brief window of competitiveness. Tampa Bay won 96 games last year. Carl Crawford is a good player but he isn’t Willie Mays, and Carlos Pena batted .196 last year and so is no great loss. Even without them, with their young pitching staff, the Rays are still one of the best teams around. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/306 "2010-12-12T01:16:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Carl Crawford is a good player but he isn’t Willie Mays Also they have a good rookie to replace him in LF. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/307 "2010-12-12T06:26:03Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Also they have a good rookie to replace him in LF. An another young ace on the way. They aren’t going away anytime soon. Plus their fans are fine, the tv ratings were way up last year. There problem is their stadium. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/308 "2010-12-13T16:18:22Z")
The longer Cliff Lee deliberates, the more I expect he’ll stay with Texas. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/309 "2010-12-13T17:20:01Z")
Hard to tell what’s going on with any signing, amid all the secrecy and leaks and planted stories and other disinformation, from both teams and agents. Apparently the Yanks have said “Final offer”, but there’s now a third mystery team in the hunt. Or that could be bogus, too. Makes you wonder if he’s yet another good ol’ boy who would prefer to stay out of the high-pressure markets, though. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/310 "2010-12-13T17:30:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Makes you wonder if he’s yet another good ol’ boy who would prefer to stay out of the high-pressure markets, though. Yeah, i’m sure that’s it. :dubious: Or maybe he likes playing in Texas, which is just down the road from his home in Arkansas? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/311 "2010-12-13T17:36:19Z")
So? That’s far enough that he can’t live there during the season. Besides, all players know (or should) by now that taking the “hometown discount” is for suckers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/312 "2010-12-13T17:48:00Z")
I don’t know if Texas qualifies as his hometown team since he played there for all of half a year. And we don’t really know what anybody is offering him, although presumably the Rangers are offering less money but the difference in taxes between New York and Texas would cancel out part of the gap. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/313 "2010-12-13T17:57:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t know if Texas qualifies as his hometown team since he played there for all of half a year. And we don’t really know what anybody is offering him, although presumably the Rangers are offering less money but the difference in taxes between New York and Texas would cancel out part of the gap. Not only that but, from the teams’ perspective, the Rangers can offer him more and actually pay less, because they’re not subject to the luxury tax. If the Yankees offer him $20m a year, that’s actually $28m a year coming out of their organization. Texas could offer $22m and actually be paying less than the Yankees. Of course, the Yankees have more money than Texas., and could more easily cope with such a big contract. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/314 "2010-12-13T18:25:51Z")
Plus Yankees fans spit on his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/315 "2010-12-13T18:43:03Z")
Nobody cares about that. Least of all Cliff Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/316 "2010-12-14T00:57:06Z")
I just decided he was going to sign with the Phillies. I hadn’t really considered it until this minute, but I’ve convinced myself it’s true and am kind of terrified now. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/317 "2010-12-14T01:00:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody cares about that. Least of all Cliff Lee. I understand Lee spits on his wife himself. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/318 "2010-12-14T01:05:26Z")
I thought it was understood that Cliff Lee is probably going to come back to Seattle. He did say he liked it here. … What? ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/319 "2010-12-14T05:16:05Z")
Cliff Lee is once again a Phillie. 5 years/100 million. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/320 "2010-12-14T05:21:08Z")
That’s quite a twist. Lucky Phils: they get to have Halladay and Lee after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=17)