# Baseball Offseason Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985 "2010-11-09T01:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/21 "2010-11-09T21:25:16Z")
So what about the ballot for the Hall of Fame veterans committee? George Steinbrenner Billy Martin Marvin Miller Vida Blue Dave Concepcion Steve Garvey Ron Guidry Tommy John Al Oliver Ted Simmons Rusty Staub Pat Gillick Certainly Marvin Miller. I can’t make a case for any of the former players…they all belong in the Hall of Very Good. ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/22 "2010-11-09T21:29:22Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > So what about the ballot for the Hall of Fame veterans committee? > > George Steinbrenner > Billy Martin > Marvin Miller > Vida Blue > Dave Concepcion > Steve Garvey > Ron Guidry > Tommy John > Al Oliver > Ted Simmons > Rusty Staub > Pat Gillick > > Certainly Marvin Miller. I can’t make a case for any of the former players…they all belong in the Hall of Very Good. Gillick belongs in there for sure. Building the Blue Jays from literally nothing into a back-to-back champion, a wire-to-wire division title in Baltimore, the 116-win Mariners, and the 2008 Phillies. Billy Martin probably should be in as well. I think he’s the only man to manage four different teams to the playoffs (MIN, DET, OAK and NYY). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/23 "2010-11-09T21:31:30Z")
Staub and Simmons look like the best of the players, but they both say “hall of very good” to me. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/24 "2010-11-09T21:33:40Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Certainly Marvin Miller. I can’t make a case for any of the former players…they all belong in the Hall of Very Good. **George Steinbrenner** : Gut feeling is yes. He changed the game for good or bad as much as Miller. \*\* Billy Martin\*\*: Everywhere he went teams improved and won. I think he is a Hall of Fame Manager. **Marvin Miller** : Package deal, I think him and George either both go or both stay out. I agree on the players, all Very Good and not one a Hall of Famer. I think Tommy John comes the closest but I am giving him points for the Fame of his surgery. **Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons & Rusty Staub** **Pat Gillick** : I don’t know, he had a lot of success but I remember him mostly as the guy that traded Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson to the Yanks for effectively for [Sterling Hitchcock](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hitchst01.shtml) (well also [Russ Davis](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/davisru01.shtml)) and traded Varitek and Lowe to the Red Sox for [Heathcliff Slocumb](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/slocuhe01.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/25 "2010-11-09T21:40:02Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > **Pat Gillick** : I don’t know, he had a lot of success but I remember him mostly as the guy that traded Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson to the Yanks for effectively for [Sterling Hitchcock](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hitchst01.shtml) (well also [Russ Davis](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/davisru01.shtml)) and traded Varitek and Lowe to the Red Sox for [Heathcliff Slocumb](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/slocuhe01.shtml). Nope. Those were Woody Woodward deals. Gillick didn’t become Seattle’s GM until after the '99 season. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/26 "2010-11-09T21:44:19Z")
> [@KennerTheGreat](#): > > Nope. Those were Woody Woodward deals. Gillick didn’t become Seattle’s GM until after the '99 season. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought he was there earlier and Wiki seemed to agree. [QUOTE=wiki] Gillick then became the general manager of the [Seattle Mariners](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Mariners), who had parlayed their incredible 1995 playoff run into a new ballpark and the financial resources to become a perennial contender. [/QUOTE] I misread this as saying Gillick started in 1995, but he was still with the Os. As those were Woodward’s ‘deals’ then Gillick should go to the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/27 "2010-11-09T21:45:04Z")
> [@KennerTheGreat](#): > > Nope. Those were Woody Woodward deals. Gillick didn’t become Seattle’s GM until after the '99 season. In that case, did he turn over enough of the roster to take some credit for the 116 win 2001 team? He definitely seems to have had a great career. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/28 "2010-11-09T21:47:29Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I’m a Yankee fan, I love Jeter, but that is a bad joke. These people still vote on fielding percentage? You may have been joking, but he does in fact have the highest fielding percentage of all AL starting shortstops. And, for those who didn’t click the link, is rated dead last by [baseball-reference.com](http://baseball-reference.com) in a number of range-based measures that I don’t know how to explain. I don’t think people really get that worked up about the Gold Gloves, myself. How many players have remained starting shortstops in their late thirties since Honus Wagner? Luke Appling, Ozzie Smith, and Omar Vizquiel are all I can think of… Cal Ripkin and Dave Concepcion moved to 3rd in their mid-30s, Alan Trammell and Mark Belanger were retired at 38. I can’t think of anyone else. A short list, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/29 "2010-11-09T21:52:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think Tommy John comes the closest but I am giving him points for the Fame of his surgery. I would elect someone into the hall of fame for that surgery, but it wouldn’t be Tommy John. ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/30 "2010-11-09T21:53:51Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > In that case, did he turn over enough of the roster to take some credit for the 116 win 2001 team? He definitely seems to have had a great career. Just looking quickly, the key players of the 116-win M’s that were there before Gillick were Dan Wilson, Edgar Martinez, Carlos Guillen and David Bell among the position players; and Freddy Garcia, Jamie Moyer, Paul Abbott, Jose Paniagua, and John Halama among the pitchers. However Abbott wasn’t a regular before Gillick was there. ---
**Author:** ![Blisters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Blisters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blisters)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/31 "2010-11-09T21:55:03Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > This offseason is way better than the actual season. Not if you’re a Giants fan. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/32 "2010-11-09T21:56:49Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I would elect someone into the hall of fame for that surgery, but it wouldn’t be Tommy John. Well part of the Hall of Fame criteria is actually _ **Fame** _. But I still think Tommy John misses out along with the other players listed. I just said he was closest. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/33 "2010-11-09T21:59:02Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I would elect someone into the hall of fame for that surgery, but it wouldn’t be Tommy John. Perhaps Frank Jobe? ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/34 "2010-11-09T22:17:57Z")
Daric Barton \>\>\> Mark Teixeira Mark Ellis \> Orlando Hudson \> Dustin Pedroia \>\>\> Robinson Cano And of course, pretty much any AL shortstop \>\>\>\>\>\>\> Derek Jeter Ironically, the only Yankee whose fielding actually _deserved_ a Gold Glove was one of the few who didn’t win one: Brett Gardner. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/35 "2010-11-09T22:20:15Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Daric Barton \>\>\> Mark Teixeira > > Mark Ellis \> Orlando Hudson \> Dustin Pedroia \>\>\> Robinson Cano > > And of course, pretty much any AL shortstop \>\>\>\>\>\>\> Derek Jeter > > Ironically, the only Yankee whose fielding actually _deserved_ a Gold Glove was one of the few who didn’t win one: Brett Gardner. Can you explain why “Daric Barton \>\>\> Mark Teixeira”? Might as well do the Cano one too. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/36 "2010-11-09T22:43:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Can you explain why “Daric Barton \>\>\> Mark Teixeira”? > > Might as well do the Cano one too. Barton’s range exceeds Teixeira’s, although I’ll admit that it’s closer than my original post stated. Teixeira’s case is also helped because first base isn’t exactly loaded with defensive powerhouses, such that a good, dependable fielder like Markie Mark has a valid claim to being the best at what he does. Let’s say “Barton \> Teixeira,” and I’ll grant that Teixeira’s the only Yankee to win who has a credible argument. I’m sticking with my 2B guns. Cano is solid defensively, but his win this year is almost certainly because of the strides he’s made with the bat, not any particular fielding prowess. Like Teixeira, he makes relatively few errors (thus appealing to the “only good stats are old stats” Gold Glove voters), but he has awful range - the worst among qualifying AL second basemen this year. Since 2B is a far more defensively oriented position than 1B, that lack of range in and of itself is enough to put him solidly in the middle tier of\* defensive \*second basemen. Don’t get me wrong, in terms of _total contribution,_ Cano is one of the best 2B in the game - but it’s mostly because of his offensive production at the position. Defensively, the best you can really say about him is that he’s not at all a liability. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/37 "2010-11-09T22:44:33Z")
Pedroia played in 75 games in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/38 "2010-11-09T22:46:54Z")
Are you basing this only on range factor then? Isn’t that nearly as limited as using only Fielding Percentage? Cano turns a DP as well or better than any other 2B and has a very strong arm. You already mentioned his lack of errors. I know Fielding percentage is over-rated but it is still of some value. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/39 "2010-11-09T22:53:47Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Are you basing this only on range factor then? Isn’t that nearly as limited as using only Fielding Percentage? Cano turns a DP as well or better than any other 2B and has a very strong arm. You already mentioned his lack of errors. I know Fielding percentage is over-rated but it is still of some value. I don’t know what metric he’s using, but he’s [wrong](http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/position/2b/league/al/order/true) if he’s citing range factor or zone rating (Cano ranked third and fifth, respectively). I think he might be using the “I hate the Yankees” formula. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985/40 "2010-11-09T23:11:41Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Dustin Pedroia \>\>\> Robinson Cano This is just flat wrong. I would’ve let this slide if you stated that they’re close to equal. While there might be better fielding 2nd basemen in the AL than Cano, Pedroia is not one of them. He’s not really even close. At this point in their careers, Cano is better than Pedroia in every facet of the game except baserunning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-offseason-thread/559985.md?page=3)