# Baseball question: ERA and errors on pitcher **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543 "2005-08-04T12:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/1 "2005-08-04T12:19:46Z")
If a runner gets on base on an error, not a base hit, and the error is on the **pitcher** , does the pitcher get charged with an earned run if the runner scores? My gut tells me no, but still I think “maybe.” ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/2 "2005-08-04T12:25:43Z")
Don’t have a cite handy, but as I recall, an error is an error. Ergo, no earned run. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/3 "2005-08-04T12:34:39Z")
[3 (e) seems to be the relevant point](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule10.shtml#anchor11198) but I don’t know how authoritative this site is. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/4 "2005-08-04T12:36:55Z")
Actually it appears in the official rules under 10.18 [link](http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp) Now, time for me to quit posting in haste and get my facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/5 "2005-08-04T13:18:29Z")
For the benefit of other interested parties, the exact language is > [@](#): > > Official Rules: 10.18 (e) An error by a pitcher is treated exactly the same as an error by any other fielder in computing earned runs. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/6 "2005-08-05T02:50:28Z")
Thanks **CapnPitt** (I remember you from WPTT when I was a kid, ah UHF) and **Quercus**. The other night I saw Josh Fogg muff Chan Ho Park’s sac bunt and made me want to ask this question. I found the earned run rule fascinating to read. A player who reaches on a wild pitch is earned but not on a passed ball. I also found it interesting that a run is not earned the player reaches: > [@](#): > > (1) on a hit or otherwise after his time at bat is prolonged by a muffed foul fly So if a catcher drops a popup foul ball and the batter then hits a homerun, the homerun is not an earned run? Very interesting and subtle. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/7 "2005-08-05T03:27:10Z")
The logic behind this, I believe, is to separate the pitcher’s role as a pitcher from his role as a fielder. If you allow a run scored because of a pitcher’s fielding error then you’re punishing him twice: his ERA (pitching) and fielding percentage (fielding) both take a hit. If it isn’t earned, only his fielding percentage takes a hit: he’s punished in the stats, but not for his pitching, as he pitched well enough to get an out even if he flubbed the fielding allowing someone to score. I hadn’t heard the rule that a wild pitch is an earned run while a passed ball is not. A wild pitch is the pitcher’s fault in his role as a pitcher, so his pitching stats should be affected. A passed ball is the catcher’s fault and should not affect his battery-mate’s pitching stats. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/8 "2005-08-05T03:28:41Z")
> [@Loopus](#): > > I hadn’t heard the rule that a wild pitch is an earned run while a passed ball is not. I meant to say that I hadn’t heard that rule **but it makes sense**. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/9 "2005-08-05T03:37:54Z")
An error is an error, but I think it isn’t the usual practice to give the pitcher a fielding error. If the ball comes back at him pretty fast, bounces of his glove, stays in the infield and the runner makes first safely I think it’s usually scored as a hit. This opinion subject to correction on later data. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/10 "2005-08-05T03:59:37Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > An error is an error, but I think it isn’t the usual practice to give the pitcher a fielding error. If the ball comes back at him pretty fast, bounces of his glove, stays in the infield and the runner makes first safely I think it’s usually scored as a hit. > > This opinion subject to correction on later data. A pitcher’s not gonna get an error on a comebacker. A pitcher’s gonna get an error when his throw to first on a bunt ends up in right field, or when he bobbles the catch covering first. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/11 "2005-08-05T04:02:42Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > An error is an error, but I think it isn’t the usual practice to give the pitcher a fielding error. If the ball comes back at him pretty fast, bounces of his glove, stays in the infield and the runner makes first safely I think it’s usually scored as a hit. > > This opinion subject to correction on later data. Errors aren’t often given to pitchers, mainly, I think, because they can’t reasonably be expected to make a lot of plays. When a ball is hit (not bunted) right back to the pitcher, he has literally a second or less to react, and very few scorekeepers will say “reasonably, he should have made that play” even if by chance he happens to get a glove on it. If the ball hits him and, say, bounces off his leg, and he can’t find it in time, he’s often not given an error because a ball bounced off the pitcher is unpredictable and hard to locate. Also, the pitcher gets a lot fewer chances. You’ll almost never see the pitcher catching a pop fly, for example, because all the other infielders, including the catcher, have priority as long as they have time to get there, and they usually do on a pop fly. Fewer chances, fewer errors. Just as an example, last year Roger Clemens (pitcher) made 0 errors on 36 total chances. Morgan Ensberg (3rd baseman) made 9 errors on 270 total chances. About the only time the pitcher gets a chance to make an error are on bunts right to him or when he messes up covering first. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/12 "2005-08-05T04:04:20Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > A pitcher’s not gonna get an error on a comebacker. A pitcher’s gonna get an error when his throw to first on a bunt ends up in right field, or when he bobbles the catch covering first. Sure, pitchers get throwing errors. And even infielders are excused from an error on really hot shots, but I think scorers are more forgiving of pitchers because they are not really in good position to recover from their pitch and move a long way to field a ground ball. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/13 "2005-08-05T14:11:57Z")
Actually, I remember when Tommy John was charged with [three errors on one play](http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/J/John_Tommy.stm). > [@](#): > > On July 27, 1988, however, John tied a ML record by committing three errors on one play. In the fourth inning against the Brewers, John muffed a ground ball for one error and threw wildly past first base for a second. Then, inexplicably, he intercepted the throw home from right field and threw wildly past the catcher. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/14 "2005-08-05T16:22:27Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Actually, I remember when Tommy John was charged with [three errors on one play](http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/J/John_Tommy.stm). > > Zev Steinhardt It’s so much fun to watch the experts screw up. My wife and I went up to Comisky Park to watch Bob Feller pitch one day. During the game the Sox got a man on first and the batter hit a bouncer about 20 ft to the left of 2nd base which Lou Boudreau fumbled. In a panic to get the double play he threw hurriedly to Joe Gordon on second base and the ball went right through him. Gordon chased it down and in an effort to get the runner at third threw about 10 ft. over the third baseman’s head while Sox runners happily circled the bases. As a former lousy infielder I couldn’t have wished for more. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/15 "2005-08-05T17:34:10Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Actually, I remember when Tommy John was charged with [three errors on one play](http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/J/John_Tommy.stm). > > Zev Steinhardt Yeah, but he had surgery to correct that! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@rowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/16 "2005-08-05T17:40:48Z")
> [@LateComer](#): > > Thanks **CapnPitt** (I remember you from WPTT when I was a kid, ah UHF) and **Quercus**. The other night I saw Josh Fogg muff Chan Ho Park’s sac bunt and made me want to ask this question. > > I found the earned run rule fascinating to read. A player who reaches on a wild pitch is earned but not on a passed ball. I also found it interesting that a run is not earned the player reaches: So if a catcher drops a popup foul ball and the batter then hits a homerun, the homerun is not an earned run? Very interesting and subtle. I think that the strange part of this scenario is that the batter still gets credit for the home run. If the batter hits a fair fly ball to an outfielder, which is dropped for an error, then he’s charged with an at bat. If that ball happens to be foul when it’s dropped, then he gets another chance. The pitcher is off the hook for whatever the batter does, but the batter still has a chance to redeem himself. Happened last week when Vladimir Guerrero’s foul ball was bungled, then he homered in the same at bat. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/17 "2005-08-05T17:45:29Z")
> [@rowe](#): > > I think that the strange part of this scenario is that the batter still gets credit for the home run. If the batter hits a fair fly ball to an outfielder, which is dropped for an error, then he’s charged with an at bat. If that ball happens to be foul when it’s dropped, then he gets another chance. The pitcher is off the hook for whatever the batter does, but the batter still has a chance to redeem himself. Happened last week when Vladimir Guerrero’s foul ball was bungled, then he homered in the same at bat. I’m a little confused. Does that mean that in the V. Guerrero situation that he was 1 for 2 in that exchange? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/18 "2005-08-05T19:41:33Z")
> [@Loopus](#): > > Also, the pitcher gets a lot fewer chances. You’ll almost never see the pitcher catching a pop fly, for example, because all the other infielders, including the catcher, have priority as long as they have time to get there, and they usually do on a pop fly. It varies by pitcher. Jamie Moyer, of my beloved but painfully hapless Mariners, is fairly proud of his ability to field his position, and is generally aggressive about waving off any approaching infielders if there’s a pop fly coming down close to the mound. I’ll agree that most pitchers would stay out of the way in that kind of situation, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/19 "2005-08-06T01:49:27Z")
> [@LateComer](#): > > I found the earned run rule fascinating to read. A player who reaches on a wild pitch is earned but not on a passed ball. I also found it interesting that a run is not earned the player reaches: So if a catcher drops a popup foul ball and the batter then hits a homerun, the homerun is not an earned run? Very interesting and subtle. I’ve never heard of a batter getting to take a base for a wild pitch! The runners advance, but not the batter. Also, a dropped foul ball is not scored as an error. An error is in relation to the fielding of what would otherwise have been scored as a hit! Also, isn’t it the case that the batter does not advance to first on a pass ball unless the pass ball occurs after the third strike (but not caught by the catcher)? Also, for clarity in relation to the OP, the pitcher cannot make an error when pitching to the plate. A wild pitch is not an error. Thus, as it was said, a pitcher only makes an error as a fielder. Last, for the OP, an error is an error. It may have already been explained above that, even if the pitcher did not make the error, the run would be unearned (as descibed in the OP). Feel free to correct me…I decided after the last baseball strike to quit patronizing the rich and famous for the sake of the poor and exploited. - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543/20 "2005-08-06T01:56:43Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > I’m a little confused. Does that mean that in the V. Guerrero situation that he was 1 for 2 in that exchange? No. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-era-and-errors-on-pitcher/315543.md?page=2)