# Baseball question: Third out, does the run count? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263 "2003-07-22T23:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/1 "2003-07-22T23:32:46Z")
Here’s the scenario: Men on second and third, one out. The pitcher starts the wind-up and the third base coach sends the runners. (You are not allowed to ask, as my brother did, why would they send the runners from second and third with one out if they weren’t attempting a squeeze–they just did, OK?) The ball is grounded sharply to third, where the third baseman fields it. In this order:[ul][li] The third baseman tags out the runner coming into third.[/li][li] The runner who had been on third crosses home.[/li][li] The third baseman throws the ball to first, where he gets the runner out in time, a force out.[/ul]My question: Does the run count? Would the answer change if the runner crossed home before either out occurred?[/li] We discussed this at length yesterday evening and could not come to a consensus. Everyone agreed that had both outs been a force, the run wouldn’t count (duh!). Several beers added no clarity at all. Go Phils. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/2 "2003-07-22T23:55:35Z")
I think I’ve got this right, but if not, I’m sure someone else will be around to correct me. Because the batter was put out at first, the run doesn’t count. If the batter had made it to first and then tried to go to second, the run would count if the runner crossed home plate before the batter was put out. The batter has to make it safely to first for the run to count. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/3 "2003-07-23T00:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cstamets \* > \*\*The batter has to make it safely to first for the run to count. \*\* Nope, I know that’s not necessarily true. First and third, one out. Ball is hit to first where the first baseman fields it, tags the bag and throws to second (no force), where the runner is tagged out. If the man who had been on third crossed home before the out at second, the run counts, despite the fact that the runner was out at first. I’ve seen this on more than one occasion. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/4 "2003-07-23T00:01:41Z")
IMO, the run will not count. The baserunner crosses while there were two out and the batter had not reached first yet within the same play. My opinion again, I believe the run would count if the order was crossing home, then out at third, then first. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/5 "2003-07-23T00:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aahala \* > \*\*IMO, the run will not count. The baserunner crosses while there were two out and the batter had not reached first yet within the same play. > > My opinion again, I believe the run would count if the order was crossing home, then out at third, then first. \*\* You are in agreement with my youngest brother. I, on the other hand, think in both instances the run does not count. However, I can support this with nothing other than my strong feeling that my younger brother cannot be right while I am wrong. He obstinately refuses to accept this eminently reasonable position. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/6 "2003-07-23T00:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Nope, I know that’s not necessarily true. First and third, one out. Ball is hit to first where the first baseman fields it, tags the bag and throws to second (no force), where the runner is tagged out. If the man who had been on third crossed home before the out at second, the run counts, despite the fact that the runner was out at first. > > I’ve seen this on more than one occasion. \*\* Different situation. In that situation, the batter isn’t the third out. The inning is still alive when the batter is put out. In the original scenario, the batter is the third out, ending the inning. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/7 "2003-07-23T00:08:58Z")
Couldn’t edit. The principle I believe is a run does not count if it immediately preceeded a force out ending the inning–where the batter must reach first considered a force out. ---
**Author:** ![Brad\_Amundsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dbc845/32.png) [@Brad\_Amundsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brad_Amundsen)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/8 "2003-07-23T00:16:50Z")
Read the rules under force play for an explanation I believe will help [http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball\_basics/mlb\_basics\_define\_terms.jsp](http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_define_terms.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/9 "2003-07-23T00:17:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cstamets \* > \*\*Different situation. In that situation, the batter isn’t the third out. The inning is still alive when the batter is put out. > > In the original scenario, the batter is the third out, ending the inning. \*\* I understand. I was just responding to this: > [@](#): > > \*\*The batter has to make it safely to first for the run to count. \*\*As I noted, this isn’t necessarily true. And even when the batter is put out to end the inning, the inning was still alive when the runner crossed home. That, by itself, won’t make the run stand, right? I thought the distinction was whether or not the third out was a force (on the same play where the run would otherwise have scored, and wheterh or not the force is on the batter). My brother thinks it depends on the out that immediately follows the “run”–if it’s a force, no run, if it is not, then the run stands. I believe that if my brother is right, the rules should be immediately amended to match my more logical position. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/10 "2003-07-23T00:45:13Z")
In this particular case, the batter turned runner does not have to make it to first base for a run to count; all the runner has to do is make it across home before the third out. Keep in mind that a forced out concerns a scenario where the runner on base _has_ to give up his position due to the batter turning into a runner. So, for example, if we have a man on first base and a batter who just hit the ball (assuming, once again, this is not a pop fly situation), the defending team would force an out by throwing the ball to second base (because the man previously on first had to move to make room for the batter) before the player tags it. That would be a forced out. In the OP’s scenario, none of the players (other than the batter) had to actually move; the men on second and third bases could have stayed there without harm from anyone other than their coaches, fans and team owners. Even if the batter had made it to safety on first and then headed to second, the man originally on second wouldn’t have had to move then, either. It wouldn’t be a forced play, because first base was still open for the batter to go back to; at that point, the defending team couldn’t simply tag a base to get the poor, waffling batter (now runner) out–they would have to actually tag the batter. Since, in the OP’s scenario, the ball was not a pop fly and was in play, the man who was on third was allowed to score–as long as he did so before the third out. He could have also stolen home, but that’s a different story. Oh, and **Brad Amundsen** ’s link provides a good (and official, of course, coming from MLB’s web site) explanation of what a forced out is. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/11 "2003-07-23T00:48:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*I understand. I was just responding to this:\*\*As I noted, this isn’t necessarily true. And even when the batter is put out to end the inning, the inning was still alive when the runner crossed home. That, by itself, won’t make the run stand, right? I thought the distinction was whether or not the third out was a force (on the same play where the run would otherwise have scored, and wheterh or not the force is on the batter). My brother thinks it depends on the out that immediately follows the “run”–if it’s a force, no run, if it is not, then the run stands. > > I believe that if my brother is right, the rules should be immediately amended to match my more logical position. 😉 \*\* First, let me amend my statement to draw it out to it’s intent in the context it was given: The batter has to make it safely to first for the run to count, when he is put out for the third out to end the inning. Obviously, the batter doesn’t have to make it first in every instance. Second, you’re right, the distinction is whether the third out was a force out. Except for my not clearly making my statement about the batter reaching first base, I think we’re actually in agreement and your brother is wrong. Different situation, trying to illustrate the difference in the order - bases loaded, batter hits into an inning-ending double play, outs made at second and third. The runner on third had been creeping down the line and crosses the plate after the ball is hit, but before the fielder even gets to the ball. Run scored? I don’t think so. I’ve never seen a run counted in any inning-ending double play situation. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/12 "2003-07-23T01:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*In this particular case, the batter turned runner does not have to make it to first base for a run to count; all the runner has to do is make it across home before the third out. > > Keep in mind that a forced out concerns a scenario where the runner on base _has_ to give up his position due to the batter turning into a runner. So, for example, if we have a man on first base and a batter who just hit the ball (assuming, once again, this is not a pop fly situation), the defending team would force an out by throwing the ball to second base (because the man previously on first had to move to make room for the batter) before the player tags it. That would be a forced out. In the OP’s scenario, none of the players (other than the batter) had to actually move; the men on second and third bases could have stayed there without harm from anyone other than their coaches, fans and team owners. > > Even if the batter had made it to safety on first and then headed to second, the man originally on second wouldn’t have had to move then, either. It wouldn’t be a forced play, because first base was still open for the batter to go back to; at that point, the defending team couldn’t simply tag a base to get the poor, waffling batter (now runner) out–they would have to actually tag the batter. > > Since, in the OP’s scenario, the ball was not a pop fly and was in play, the man who was on third was allowed to score–as long as he did so before the third out. He could have also stolen home, but that’s a different story. > > Oh, and **Brad Amundsen** ’s link provides a good (and official, of course, coming from MLB’s web site) explanation of what a forced out is. \*\* Hmmm… Ok, now I’m officially confused (doesn’t take much). Of course, the difference in this versus the bases-loaded scenario is in my scenario everyone’s a force out. ## Finally… my eyes hurt from looking… here’s the rule… ## HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. According to number 2, whether the second out was a force or not has nothing to do with it, and my original statement was correct. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/13 "2003-07-23T01:00:36Z")
From **Brad Amundsen** ’s link: > [@](#): > > Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/14 "2003-07-23T01:02:41Z")
That was rule 4.09 at [MLB](http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/baseball_basics/mlb_basics_start_and_end.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/15 "2003-07-23T01:05:13Z")
I dunno, **cstamets** , maybe I’m the one who is wrong here. Where did your cite come from? ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/16 "2003-07-23T01:09:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > **From Brad Amundsen’s link: > Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts.** But the batter is not the third out in that situation, and the third out is not a force out. This situation doesn’t apply to either the OP, or aahala’s revised situation about the runner crossing home before the second out was scored. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/17 "2003-07-23T01:12:26Z")
Well, actually, according to your link, I’m wrong. It looks like you’re right in that the run doesn’t count–unless there exists exceptions not mentioned in those rules. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/18 "2003-07-23T01:19:41Z")
Excellent. I was wrong. Rounds for everyone, courtesy Bob’s brother.😃 ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/19 "2003-07-23T01:21:01Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by cstamets \* \*\*HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. > > According to number 2, whether the second out was a force or not has nothing to do with it, and my original statement was correct. \*\* What could be clearer? No. 1 clearly states that a run shall not be scored during a play in which the third out is made by the batter before he touches first base. Of course, No. 2 is applicable also. ---
**Author:** ![cstamets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@cstamets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cstamets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263/20 "2003-07-23T01:24:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cstamets \* > \*\*First, let me amend my statement to draw it out to it’s intent in the context it was given: > Different situation, trying to illustrate the difference in the order - bases loaded, batter hits into an inning-ending double play, outs made at second and third. The runner on third had been creeping down the line and crosses the plate after the ball is hit, but before the fielder even gets to the ball. \*\* I think I meant second and first there, but third works, if put in the proper order of third and then second. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-question-third-out-does-the-run-count/190263.md?page=2)