# Baseball September 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570 "2009-09-02T00:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/281 "2009-10-04T05:28:21Z")
I have a wonderful view of Dodger Stadium from my Downtown LA office. Now I should have a wonderful view of the parade route later this month as well. Congratulations (finally) to the NL West champs! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/282 "2009-10-04T05:49:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is a damn good one. You guys just are obdurate in your beliefs. This from the guy who thinks wins are the measure of quality. You’re hilarious. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Yes, I am pissed that he came up like a rookie in the biggest ,most important game of his season. What do you mean, “biggest, most important”? That game was no bigger or more important for KC than any other. As you have so gleefully pointed out on multiple occasions, they’re not a contender for a playoff spot. The fact that it was important to you, and to Detroit, and to Minnesota, doesn’t mean it was especially important to the Royals. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I was buying your well reasoned arguments that he is almost unbeatable. Don’t be dishonest. It’s unbecoming. You have given no hint over the course of this thread that you were buying any of my arguments. Don’t now pretend that you were, just so you can go on holding exactly the same beliefs that you’ve held all along. Also, please show me where i ever described him as “almost unbeatable.” Once again, you attempt to rebut an argument that no-one ever made. Is it the voices in your heading talking again? > [@gonzomax](#): > > That he was so good he would shut the Twits down. but they just spanked him. Well, for non-spanking values of “spanked,” i guess. Sure, this wasn’t Greinke’s best outing all year, but i’d hardly call 6 hits and 4 earned runs over 6 innings a spanking. The fact that you do suggests that your emotion over the Tigers’ woeful showing this weekend is getting to you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/283 "2009-10-04T05:59:39Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The fact that you do suggests that your emotion over the Tigers’ woeful showing this weekend is getting to you. It’s mean of you to call attention to the Tigers’ horrendous choke job like that. 😛 Still, the Twins are running out Carl Pavano Sunday on three days’ rest, and he’s been bad his last two starts. If the Twins pull this off I may die laughing, and I _do_ feel bad for the city of Detroit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/284 "2009-10-04T06:06:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s mean of you to call attention to the Tigers’ horrendous choke job like that. 😛 Still, the Twins are running out Carl Pavano Sunday on three days’ rest, and he’s been bad his last two starts. If the Twins pull this off I may die laughing, and I _do_ feel bad for the city of Detroit. Hey, me too. I actually picked the Tigers to win the division at the beginning of the season, and i was quite happy that they were proving me right. I’d love for them to have another shot after falling to the crappy Cardinals back in '06. But i would laugh a bit if the Twins pulled it off this weekend. As **RickJay** noted upthread, “You’ve got one bad pitching staff when someone can honestly say ‘Hey, it might help if Carl Pavano’s healthy for the playoffs.’” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/285 "2009-10-04T06:44:43Z")
It would be even better if Pavano started a game for the Twins in Yankee Stadium. I can almost hear the boos from here. The four runs in the first inning would just be a bonus. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/286 "2009-10-04T13:18:50Z")
[Bitter.Me](http://Bitter.Me) bitter. Ha I laugh at bitter. The Tigers are a guarantee to win. They are just making it exciting. Good for the game. But we all know they are just playing with our emotions to gather interest. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/287 "2009-10-04T15:53:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The fact that he was able to escape pitching against the Yankees and Red Sox , for the whole season is not a coincidence. If it’s not a coincidence, it should be pretty easy to show your work on this one. If not, I’ll just assume you’re lying out your ass. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/288 "2009-10-04T16:03:29Z")
Just got back from Munich and Oktoberfest. Just want to note BJ Upton hit for the cycle in the first five innings of last Friday night’s game and made Sabathia look like a rookie while doing so. Sorry I missed it. At least some positive stuff at the end of the season. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/289 "2009-10-04T16:15:16Z")
Oh, what the hell, put me on the Twinks bandwagon for this afternoon. I believe! I believe! Not that it matters for the ALDS. Either team is going to have its pitchers tired and in disarray going into New York. > [@Munch](#): > > I’ll just assume you’re lying out your ass. Not cool. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/290 "2009-10-04T17:08:18Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > **RickJay** must be thrilled today. His wish has come true. JP Ricciardi is out! I was up north at a resort attending my wife’s best friend’s wedding, so I didn’t find out about it until today. So I am thrilled today. Well, actually, no, I’m relieved. Ricciardi should have been fired, at the absolute latest, one minute after he signed the Frank Thomas contract; that was the sign he’d completely abandoned any pretense of having a plan. This is really, really, almost absurdly overdue. They desperately need a change of direction. I know nothing about his apparent replacement except what you can read in the usual sources, but it’s worth a shot. Incidentally, Zack Greinke did start against the Red Sox this year. He beat them. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/291 "2009-10-04T17:44:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I was up north at a resort attending my wife’s best friend’s wedding, so I didn’t find out about it until today. > > So I am thrilled today. > > Well, actually, no, I’m relieved. Ricciardi should have been fired, at the absolute latest, one minute after he signed the Frank Thomas contract; that was the sign he’d completely abandoned any pretense of having a plan. This is really, really, almost absurdly overdue. They desperately need a change of direction. > > I know nothing about his apparent replacement except what you can read in the usual sources, but it’s worth a shot. > > Incidentally, Zack Greinke did start against the Red Sox this year. He beat them. Exactly once, Does that prove he wasn’t held out to play weaker teams in your estimation. I can follow trends pretty well. he was positioned to go for the Cy Young.His rotation was modified to allow him to go up against weaker hitting teams. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/292 "2009-10-04T18:41:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Exactly once, Does that prove he wasn’t held out to play weaker teams in your estimation. I can follow trends pretty well. he was positioned to go for the Cy Young.His rotation was modified to allow him to go up against weaker hitting teams. Once is more than never, which you claimed. And we don’t need to prove he wasn’t held out, you have to prove he was. Still waiting… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/293 "2009-10-04T18:44:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not cool. Maybe. But he’s continuing this line of argument. It would be as easy to prove as saying “on June 1 he was pulled out of the rotation to avoid Verlander, so he could pitch against Cleveland the next day - here’s the rotation chart on [espn.com](http://espn.com) [link].” But he can’t and won’t - because he’s pulling it out of his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/294 "2009-10-04T19:10:17Z")
Royals played the Yankees the second series of the season, and at the very end of September. He missed the first series because he was the #2 starter, and the #2 starter pitches on days 2 and 7, so naturally misses 4, 5, and 6. He pitched on normal rest every day of the season according to the schedule except for twice on six days’. He pitched against the Angels and Sox, Tampa, and Minnesota. He pitched against Toronto, Texas, and Cleveland. That, in order, is your top 8 in AL scoring. Against those 8 teams (7, really, because he missed the Yanks), he threw 16 games, 108 innings, had a 6-4 record with a 2.4 ERA, 2 CG, 1 shutout, 122 SO/29 BB, and a 1.18 WHIP. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/295 "2009-10-04T19:16:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Exactly once, Does that prove he wasn’t held out to play weaker teams in your estimation. I can follow trends pretty well. he was positioned to go for the Cy Young.His rotation was modified to allow him to go up against weaker hitting teams. Are you seriously arguing that the Royals purposely adjusted their rotation throughout the whole season so that their best pitcher would not have to face good teams? That’s a level of conspiracy-theory paranoia that i never even suspected. I thought you were simply whining about how the Royals got to face more bad teams, but you’re actually arguing that they had a conspiracy going all year to keep Greinke in the Cy Young race by holding him out of tough games? I think you might need to adjust the antenna on that tinfoil hat you’re wearing. Here is the [Royals game log](http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/tgl.cgi?team=KCR&t=p&year=2009) for the season. The last column shows the starting pitcher. I can’t see anywhere in that whole list where you could make a reasonable argument that the Royals were massaging the rotation to give Greinke easy starts. Like most teams, the Royals work with a 5-starter rotation, and they did that for pretty much the whole season. From the beginning of the year, when he made the second start of the season, Greinke pitched every 5th game, almost as reliable as clockwork. There were three occasions where he pitched after three games rest (instead of 4), and those were all on occasions when the Royals had a day off. Every team does this sometimes, in order to give their best starters more starts. There were also two occasions when he pitched after five games rest, and both of those are easily explained. On one occasion, the extra rest did change Greinke’s opposition. He faced the Indians (Sept. 11) instead of the Tigers (Sept. 10). But this was late in the season, and he had thrown 125 pitches in his previous outing, so the Royals might have wanted to rest him. In fact, here’s [some support](http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/FantasySourceFastball/entry/view/33425/rotations_greinke_to_get_extra_rest) for that argument: > [@](#): > > Leading off with Royals ace Zack Greinke seems like a good place to start. After throwing 125 pitches in his last outing, Greinke is expected to get extra rest this week. > > Greinke was originally scheduled to start Thursday against the Tigers, but according to the Kansas City Star, he is more likely to make his next appearance on Saturday at Cleveland. > > Perhaps Royals manager Trey Hillman would’ve made a similar move in May, but being careful with pitchers is especially prevalent late in the season. And since Greinke is an AL Cy Young Award candidate and the Royals’ franchise cornerstone it’s hard to argue with the logic. So they gave their best starter an extra day’s rest for a meaningless game at the end of the season. Big fucking deal. A logical move to preserve the health of one of the best pitchers in the game, and not a conspiracy to win him the Cy Young. It’s also worth nothing that, the other time when Greinke had a 5-game rest, the extra day off did not change which team he faced. He would have faced the Rays whether he started on July 17 or July 18. Not only that, but by waiting the extra day, Greinke had to square off against Scott Kazmir. Not exactly the Rays’ weakest pitcher. Also, July 17 was the first day back after the All-Star break, so the Royals might have wanted to give Greinke and extra day to settle back in after pitching in the All-Star game. Again, a perfectly reasonable precaution to take with your star pitcher. Your “argument” is looking pretty goddamned anemic, **gonzo**. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/296 "2009-10-04T19:45:49Z")
Really. Do you actually follow stats or just use them when they follow your predilections.? He missed every Yankee series, every Sox except one and never went head to head against the opposing teams ace. That is beyond coincidental. It was deliberate and done to pad his stats. It worked well. He has nice stats. I would not be surprised if he won the Cy Young since that was the aim after all. who can argue with his ERA. I guess that is the only number we need. He won 16 games. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/297 "2009-10-04T20:02:50Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Really. Do you actually follow stats or just use them when they follow your predilections.? He missed every Yankee series, every Sox except one and never went head to head against the opposing teams ace. That is beyond coincidental. It was deliberate and done to pad his stats. It worked well. He has nice stats. I would not be surprised if he won the Cy Young since that was the aim after all. who can argue with his ERA. I guess that is the only number we need. He won 16 games. You are actually insane. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/298 "2009-10-04T20:06:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Really. Do you actually follow stats or just use them when they follow your predilections.? He missed every Yankee series, every Sox except one and never went head to head against the opposing teams ace. That is beyond coincidental. It was deliberate and done to pad his stats. It worked well. He has nice stats. I would not be surprised if he won the Cy Young since that was the aim after all. who can argue with his ERA. I guess that is the only number we need. He won 16 games. If only Greinke had faced other teams’ aces more often. Then he wouldn’t have gotten such massive run support. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/299 "2009-10-04T20:07:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That is beyond coincidental. It was deliberate and done to pad his stats. One date. All we’re asking for is one date that the Royals massaged the rotation to give Greinke a stat-padding advantage. Just one. Can’t do it? How odd. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/300 "2009-10-04T20:13:16Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Really. Do you actually follow stats or just use them when they follow your predilections.? He missed every Yankee series, every Sox except one and never went head to head against the opposing teams ace. That is beyond coincidental. It was deliberate and done to pad his stats. It worked well. He has nice stats. I would not be surprised if he won the Cy Young since that was the aim after all. who can argue with his ERA. I guess that is the only number we need. He won 16 games. Royals played the Yankees the second series of the season, and at the very end of September. He missed the first series because he was the #2 starter, and the #2 starter pitches on days 2 and 7, so naturally misses 4, 5, and 6. He pitched on normal rest every day of the season according to the schedule except for twice on six days’. He pitched against the Angels and Sox, Tampa, and Minnesota. He pitched against Toronto, Texas, and Cleveland. That, in order, is your top 8 in AL scoring. Against those 8 teams (7, really, because he missed the Yanks), he threw 16 games, 108 innings, had a 6-4 record with a 2.4 ERA, 2 CG, 1 shutout, 122 SO/29 BB, and a 1.18 WHIP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=16)