# Baseball September 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570 "2009-09-02T00:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/101 "2009-09-22T16:50:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If Greinke does win the Cy Young (which i believe he should), he will be the first pitcher ever to win it with fewer than 18 wins (excluding years where there was not a full season of games). Even assuming the words “not including relief pitchers,” that is not true. Brandon Webb won the award going 16-8, Randy Johnson won it going 17-9, and Pedro Martinez won it going 17-8, all in 162-game seasons. Rick Sutcliffe won the 1984 NL award going 16-1; he’d won 4 games with Cleveland before being traded, though. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/102 "2009-09-22T17:01:19Z")
mhendo: > [@](#): > > If Greinke does win the Cy Young (which i believe he should), he will be the first pitcher ever to win it with fewer than 18 wins Nitpick: First STARTER to…etc ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/103 "2009-09-22T17:02:53Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You’re a really unpleasant person to talk baseball with. Are all Boston fans like you? Speaking as a Boston fan, no. Frankly I think he’s being a jerk. I have no problem with a KC fan being happy that the Royals won that game. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/104 "2009-09-22T17:15:21Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Well, I have always felt Cy Young should go to the best pitcher, but I am one of those dunces that consider Wins important too. So silly of me where in the end, it is the most important stat even if you don’t actually have control over it. It is his very lack of Wins and innings per game that make me question him as a sure fire Cy Young candidate. He is a very good candidate, but not sure fire. Yeah it is pretty silly of you. Sabathia averages over 3 more runs of support a game. Do you think that maybe this is why he has more wins? Honest question: Say the yankees and royals swapped Greinke and Sabathia before the season and they put up similar seasons to what they did in terms of era and innings. How many wins would each of them have? Also Greinke is fifth in the league in innings, only 10 behind Sabathia. Sabathia has given up 31 extra earned runs. Are you saying that if Greinke pitched an extra 30 innings (one per start) and gave up an extra 30 runs he would be more valuable than he is now? He would still have a better ERA than Sabathia in that scenario. > [@](#): > > As to MVP, I feel it is meant to go to a player that helped his team the most and all players on non-competing teams do not qualify unless there is no good candidate. As the Twins climbed back into the race and made September meaningful, I think Mauer should win easily. Earlier in the month when it looked like they might finish under .500 and not contending in September, I would not have given him a vote. Yeah, good thing Mauer caused the Tigers to collapse. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been very valuable. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/105 "2009-09-22T17:24:55Z")
What Exit?, what about Greinke’s innings per game make you question his qualifications for Cy Young? He’s second in the league with 7.0 innings per game. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/106 "2009-09-22T17:27:48Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Honest question: Say the yankees and royals swapped Greinke and Sabathia before the season and they put up similar seasons to what they did in terms of era and innings. How many wins would each of them have? It might not be that different. How much of Greinke’s success, like that of so many others, is attributable to him being in a low-pressure environment? If he really had to win a Game 7, with 50,000 people screaming at him, could he do it? We won’t know even about Sabathia until next month - but he has a postseason history that should make Yankee fans a little concerned until he proves otherwise. We may not know about Greinke until he goes free agent - will he sign with, and then perform for, a contender? And what if his anxiety disorder kicks back in - what would playing in Wrigley do to him? Yes, Mauer for AL MVP. Catchers aren’t supposed to be able to hit like that, especially not late in the game when their left hands are sore. He’s not necessarily the best _team_ player, but there’s evidence of that anyway, and the award is for individual performance anyway. Does everyone here know how chain-yanking, friendly taunting, and trash talk work? I’m not convinced you all do. It’s part of being a fan, guys. Baseball is a game. Entertainment. Sheesh. Now, if anyone would like to get into baseball’s problem with revenue disparities between markets relegating so many cities to permanent noncompetitiveness, I’ll be happy to do so. It isn’t good for the game that only Boston, New York, Chicago, and LA fans can count on having a contending team every year, while the Oaklands and Baltimores of the world can only pray for a smart front office and a lot of luck. Pittsburghers can’t even pray for that. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/107 "2009-09-22T17:30:20Z")
**Moderator’s Notice** I’m not a baseball fan, don’t follow american baseball or baseball threads in general, so I’ve got no idea what’s going on in here. Except for two things: 1 - There’s a lot of posters here coming close to the realm of Jerkish behaviour. Cease and desist with the backhanded insults. And that goes for everyone. 2 - Accusing other posters, even backhandedly, of being trolls is not done in the Game Room. If you sincerely think someone here is trolling, send a PM to the Game Room moderators, report their posts or confront them in the BBQ pit. I will not see any more talk of it in here. Yes, I see a lot of goading and crowing in this thread and yes, I’m aware of it. But it’s sports related, so I’m going to let it slide for now. If you have any complaints or comments, I’d be pleased if you could address them to me in a PM or e-mail, since I’m about to head off for a dinner party and won’t be online for the rest of the night. - Gukumatz, Game Room Moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/108 "2009-09-22T17:37:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It might not be that different. How much of Greinke’s success, like that of so many others, is attributable to him being in a low-pressure environment? If he really had to win a Game 7, with 50,000 people screaming at him, could he do it? We won’t know even about Sabathia until next month - but he has a postseason history that should make Yankee fans a little concerned until he proves otherwise. We may not know about Greinke until he goes free agent - will he sign with, and then perform for, a contender? And what if his anxiety disorder kicks back in - what would playing in Wrigley do to him? How is Buckholz doing? You know your guy that couldn’t cut it in a big market? But I don’t really wish to rehash silly arguments on sample size, so I’ll just say the Cy Young has no requirement on the quality of team around you. > [@](#): > > Now, if anyone would like to get into baseball’s problem with revenue disparities between markets relegating so many cities to permanent noncompetitiveness, I’ll be happy to do so. It isn’t good for the game that only Boston, New York, Chicago, and LA fans can count on having a contending team every year, while the Oaklands and Baltimores of the world can only pray for a smart front office and a lot of luck. Pittsburghers can’t even pray for that. For the 437rd time, Baltimore isn’t a small market. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/109 "2009-09-22T17:45:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even assuming the words “not including relief pitchers,” that is not true. Brandon Webb won the award going 16-8, Randy Johnson won it going 17-9, and Pedro Martinez won it going 17-8, all in 162-game seasons. Rick Sutcliffe won the 1984 NL award going 16-1; he’d won 4 games with Cleveland before being traded, though. Sorry. AL Starter was the category i should have said. My bad. **What Exit?** , we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I find your MVP voting rationale completely illogical and absurd. It rests on a definition of “valuable” that is completely independent of the player’s actual ability. Even if he is objectively the best player in the world, but he plays on a really shitty team, then under your system he can never win the award. I think that’s a complete travesty. And the Wins thing for pitchers is even worse. A Win is “the most important stat” as far as the team goes. The purpose of a team is to win games. A win is a win, and a 9-8 victory is just as important for your team’s final W-L total as a 2-1 victory. But getting to the postseason is the reward for team wins; the Cy Young award is about rewarding the best pitcher, and the best pitcher is the guy who actually pitches the best, not the guy who happens to have a whole lot of awesome sluggers backing him up. **Hawkeyeop** , you give a stat about Sabathia and Greinke’s run support. Do you know how i can find run support figures for different pitchers, for the innings when they were actually on the mound (as opposed to the whole game)? I can’t work out how to do it on Baseball Prospectus or Baseball Reference. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/110 "2009-09-22T17:48:43Z")
I don’t know whether or not I would call Baltimore small market. But, I do know that their losing has a lot more to do with a short sighted greedy owner than with the size of the market. Elvis, trash talking done before the game is fun and healthy fan stuff. Doing it after a loss kind of makes you look like a sore loser. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/111 "2009-09-22T17:50:58Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > **Hawkeyeop** , you give a stat about Sabathia and Greinke’s run support. Do you know how i can find run support figures for different pitchers, for the innings when they were actually on the mound (as opposed to the whole game)? I can’t work out how to do it on Baseball Prospectus or Baseball Reference. I was using this: > **[MLB Pitching All MLB Stat Leaders, 2025 Regular Season - ESPN](https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/player/_/view/pitching)** > > ESPN is the place for MLB stats! Discover the All MLB Pitching stat leaders of the 2025 MLB Regular Season. It has Peavy at 23.40 runs for his one start, so I assume it only counts while the pitcher is active. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/112 "2009-09-22T17:51:08Z")
mhendo, you weren’t asking me but > **[2009 American League Starting Pitching | Baseball-Reference.com](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2009-starter-pitching.shtml)** > > Check out the starting pitching stats for all the American League teams and players on Baseball-Reference.com show runs per innings in game. RS/IP ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/113 "2009-09-22T17:51:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He’s not necessarily the best _team_ player… Based upon what criteria? How many times have you played on a team with him? Did he steal your cleats? What did he do, specifically, that made you think that he was not a “team player.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/114 "2009-09-22T18:14:26Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > How is Buckholz doing? Outstandingly. Slot him in as the #3 guy for the postseason. 😃 > [@](#): > > You know your guy that couldn’t cut it in a big market? That was one possible explanation for last year, another (which turned out to be right) being that he was brought up too early. But he did have a mental toughness problem last year; do you disagree? If instead he was older, more set in his ways, could he have adjusted mentally the way he did, or would he be Kenny Rogers instead, hoping to be Roy Halladay someday? Don’t discount mental toughness and confidence. That’s what wins when it matters, not VORP. > [@](#): > > For the 437rd time, Baltimore isn’t a small market. Compared to NY, Chi, LA, even Bos, of course it is. But you’re right that a dumb front office is a more immediate problem than lack of revenue there. Same for Pittsburgh and, oh, far too many other places to count. **mhendo** , I’m sure you really do know what a team player is. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/115 "2009-09-22T18:24:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **mhendo** , I’m sure you really do know what a team player is. Never said i didn’t. What i questioned was how _you_ know that Joe Mauer isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/116 "2009-09-22T19:14:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It might not be that different. How much of Greinke’s success, like that of so many others, is attributable to him being in a low-pressure environment? First off, I think there’s a lot of validity in this line of questioning. But there’s just so much guesswork involved, it’s hard to make any complete judgment. The thing is - winning isn’t easy anywhere. It’s hard in Boston, because there’s constant scrutiny and high expections. It’s hard in Kansas City because your team sucks ass. I think that over a 162 game season, a lot of that cancels out. But I don’t think you can take an award away from a guy because you think that in a different environment he’d fold. > [@](#): > > If he really had to win a Game 7, with 50,000 people screaming at him, could he do it? I think that’s unfair. I think that’s a question a GM absolutely has to answer when trying to figure whether he wants to sign the guy, but for a writer voting on who had the best regular season? They’re different discussions. I love Greinke, but I don’t think he’d prosper in an intense environment - the confines of his own head seem to be complicated enough. Doesn’t mean his on-field regular season accomplishments are any less important. Sabathia puts the same numbers up in NY - you give the award to CC. But he didn’t, so you don’t. I’m not sure why you’re bringing up post-season mettle in a regular-season discussion. Is that a factor you’d really consider if you were casting a ballot? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/117 "2009-09-22T19:41:45Z")
I’m not saying Greinke _can’t_ perform under pressure, only that we literally don’t know, and there’s more reason to worry about it with him than with most guys. Same for Roy Halladay, since we were discussing him back at the trade deadline. I would say that the pressure of performing in a major market for a contender is of a different kind than the pressure of trying to stand out on a bad team in the hopes of getting a nice free agency offer, though. I wouldn’t apply postseason toughness as a criterion for a regular-season award, no. But in the broader area of discussing a player’s value, hell yes I would. And yes, btw, I’d go with Greinke for the Cy for all the reasons discussed here. Not the MVP, because I’d disqualify pitchers, but that’s another topic. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/118 "2009-09-22T19:48:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And yes, btw, I’d go with Greinke for the Cy for all the reasons discussed here. Even those reasons involving actual numbers? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/119 "2009-09-22T19:52:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That was one possible explanation for last year, another (which turned out to be right) being that he was brought up too early. But he did have a mental toughness problem last year; do you disagree? Yes, I disagree. Or rather I do not and cannot know. Maybe it was a mental problem, maybe it was a problem with pitch selection, maybe he didn’t adjust to the talent level increase quickly, maybe it was an injury etc. There are many possible reasons and I see no reason to assume he wasn’t mentally tough or that he would have had more success in Kansas City. What I did think at the time, was that he was a very successful pitcher except for a brief period in Boston, and that he would eventually figure it. You I believe were in the he can’t hack it in Boston based on a brief trial camp. > [@](#): > > Don’t discount mental toughness and confidence. That’s what wins when it matters, not VORP. Okay, give me a list of teams that have players that have strong mental toughness for next season. Then we can compare whether the team over or under achieved their VORP. > [@](#): > > Compared to NY, Chi, LA, even Bos, of course it is. In what way is Boston large than Baltimore? > [@](#): > > I’m sure you really do know what a team player is. Likable in interviews and signs autographs? Oh and dives whether or not it is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/120 "2009-09-22T20:03:46Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > In what way is Boston large than Baltimore? Well, according to the numbers [here](http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6225)(might be behind paywall at BaseballProspectus) Boston has the 8th largest “Attendance” fanbase and 8th largest “TV” fanbase. Baltimore is 12th and 16th respectively. I believe this has to do with having to share the market with Washington. These numbers were developed by Nate Silver to get a grip on which teams were truly hurt by their locations and which just like to cry poor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=7)