# Baseball September 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570 "2009-09-02T00:03:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/121 "2009-09-22T20:08:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What i questioned was how _you_ know that Joe Mauer isn’t one. Please read posts before responding to them. I said the opposite. :rolleyes: **hawkeyeop** , it looked like the most probable explanation. He was already 24, so I placed little weight on the age/maturity explanation. I’m happy to have been wrong about him. > [@](#): > > In what way is Boston large than Baltimore? Don’t be silly. [Link.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas) Boston SMSA rank #10, Baltimore #20. But in addition, the fan base for Boston covers all of New England except SW CT, and much of eastern Canada for that matter, while Baltimore’s is really just MD and maybe not even the DC suburbs anymore. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/122 "2009-09-22T20:28:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Please read posts before responding to them. I said the opposite. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: yourself. Here’s what you said: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He’s not necessarily the best _team_ player, but there’s evidence of that anyway, and the award is for individual performance anyway. Admittedly, this is an ambiguous, poorly-constructed sentence, so it’s possible that there might be more than one interpretation. But it seems to suggest that Joe Mauer is “not necessarily the best team player.” So, i reiterate my question: how do you know what sort of team player he is? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/123 "2009-09-22T21:55:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Sorry. AL Starter was the category i should have said. My bad. > > **What Exit?** , we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. > > I find your MVP voting rationale completely illogical and absurd. It rests on a definition of “valuable” that is completely independent of the player’s actual ability. Even if he is objectively the best player in the world, but he plays on a really shitty team, then under your system he can never win the award. I think that’s a complete travesty. > > And the Wins thing for pitchers is even worse. A Win is “the most important stat” as far as the team goes. The purpose of a team is to win games. A win is a win, and a 9-8 victory is just as important for your team’s final W-L total as a 2-1 victory. But getting to the postseason is the reward for team wins; the Cy Young award is about rewarding the best pitcher, and the best pitcher is the guy who actually pitches the best, not the guy who happens to have a whole lot of awesome sluggers backing him up. > > **Hawkeyeop** , you give a stat about Sabathia and Greinke’s run support. Do you know how i can find run support figures for different pitchers, for the innings when they were actually on the mound (as opposed to the whole game)? I can’t work out how to do it on Baseball Prospectus or Baseball Reference. It is a travesty when a player on a last place team wins the MVP. They finished last with him. If he wasn’t there, they would have finished last. What impact did he have, padded statistics. He played a season without the pressure of a pennant race and relaxed all year long. It was a pressureless game. Most Valuable Player must impact a team. A last place team can not have the MVP. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/124 "2009-09-22T22:25:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is a travesty when a player on a last place team wins the MVP. They finished last with him. If he wasn’t there, they would have finished last. What impact did he have, padded statistics. He played a season without the pressure of a pennant race and relaxed all year long. It was a pressureless game. Most Valuable Player must impact a team. A last place team can not have the MVP. Perhaps this is true of the **gonzomax Most Important to a Winning Team** award, but the instructions given to actual **Major League Baseball MVP** voters read: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] "Dear Voter: "There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier. "The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931: "1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team. "You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from one to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. "Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters. “Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.” [/QUOTE] To repeat, **The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.** It is only a travesty if you would have the voters completely disregard the instructions they are given. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/125 "2009-09-22T22:31:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is a travesty when a player on a last place team wins the MVP. They finished last with him. If he wasn’t there, they would have finished last. What impact did he have, padded statistics. He played a season without the pressure of a pennant race and relaxed all year long. It was a pressureless game. Most Valuable Player must impact a team. A last place team can not have the MVP. Are you including Cy Young in this? Or specifically, literally, the MVP award? Because I think you’re right about MVP, but would be wrong about Cy Young — the best pitcher can be on a terrible team. The classic example is Steve Carlton, who won almost half the Phillies’ games in 1972. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/126 "2009-09-22T23:03:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is a travesty when a player on a last place team wins the MVP. They finished last with him. If he wasn’t there, they would have finished last. What impact did he have, padded statistics. He played a season without the pressure of a pennant race and relaxed all year long. It was a pressureless game. Most Valuable Player must impact a team. A last place team can not have the MVP. I literally have no response. I think i’m going to have to stay out of the whole MVP debate, because this line of argument seems so irrational and nonsensical to me that i feel like we’re talking different languages. It might be a congenital failing on my part, but i literally do not understand how someone could arrive at this position. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/127 "2009-09-22T23:13:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I literally have no response. > > I think i’m going to have to stay out of the whole MVP debate, because this line of argument seems so irrational and nonsensical to me that i feel like we’re talking different languages. It might be a congenital failing on my part, but i literally do not understand how someone could arrive at this position. All I can figure is that people with this opinion (and I concede there are a lot of them) overestimate the extent to which baseball is a team game. It’s really not. It is a series of individual contests that add up to a team result. There are a few plays that require teamwork (pick-offs, double plays, relay throws) but the vast majority of offensive, defensive, and pitching plays are 100% individual efforts. Once you make this leap it’s much easier to see how an MVP can come from a losing (or in fact last place) team. Each player contributes a certain amount to a teams success. The one that contributes the most is the MVP. The overall quantity of team success is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/128 "2009-09-23T03:06:25Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > All I can figure is that people with this opinion (and I concede there are a lot of them) overestimate the extent to which baseball is a team game. It’s really not. It is a series of individual contests that add up to a team result. There are a few plays that require teamwork (pick-offs, double plays, relay throws) but the vast majority of offensive, defensive, and pitching plays are 100% individual efforts. Once you make this leap it’s much easier to see how an MVP can come from a losing (or in fact last place) team. I think you’re right. Hell, they even give [MLB.com columns](http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090914&content_id=6962420&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) to people who feel that way. Hal Bodley seems to feel that not only is the MVP a team-success-based award: > [@](#): > > The MVP Award should go to the player whose leadership and value has contributed to his team’s success more than any other individual. Jeter has been that player for the Yankees as they storm to another AL East title. He also seems to believe it should be a sort of Lifetime Achievement Award: > [@](#): > > When Jeter passed Lou Gehrig’s record that had stood for more than 70 years over the weekend for most hits by a Yankees player, he sealed the deal. > > Sure, you can argue the honor should go to the Minnesota Twins’ Joe Mauer, or even Jeter’s teammate, Mark Teixeira, but if the Yankees captain isn’t MVP, the voting baseball writers should be investigated. Unbelievable. Jeter is a great player, and has had a great year, but Mauer should be AL MVP, in a walk. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/129 "2009-09-23T03:32:32Z")
I really like Adam Wainwright(2.59 18-8 193) for NL Cy. His teammate Carpenter has has a lower ERA, but fewer wins, innings pitched, strikeouts . ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/130 "2009-09-23T04:33:41Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Are you including Cy Young in this? Or specifically, literally, the MVP award? Because I think you’re right about MVP, but would be wrong about Cy Young — the best pitcher can be on a terrible team. The classic example is Steve Carlton, who won almost half the Phillies’ games in 1972. Cy Young award is different. As a matter of fact ,it is harder to pitch well for a bad team. They are missing something to be last, like hitting or defense. So that would show real pitching. A guy winning 20 with a powerhouse could be a far less effective pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/131 "2009-09-23T04:46:34Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > All I can figure is that people with this opinion (and I concede there are a lot of them) overestimate the extent to which baseball is a team game. It’s really not. It is a series of individual contests that add up to a team result. There are a few plays that require teamwork (pick-offs, double plays, relay throws) but the vast majority of offensive, defensive, and pitching plays are 100% individual efforts. Once you make this leap it’s much easier to see how an MVP can come from a losing (or in fact last place) team. > > Each player contributes a certain amount to a teams success. The one that contributes the most is the MVP. The overall quantity of team success is irrelevant. I disagree. It is not called the best offensive statistics award. it is called the Most Valuable Player Award. How can you be the most valuable when your team came in last. ? They would have finished last if you broke your leg on opening day. With your fine playing they came in last. They have lots of awards that do not imply team player. Silver Slugger- top player at each position Gold Glove- best fielder Comeback player rookie of the year relief pitcher award Cy Young Hank AAron award- top hitter in each league None of those imply value to the team. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/132 "2009-09-23T04:51:05Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think you’re right. > > Hell, they even give [MLB.com columns](http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090914&content_id=6962420&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) to people who feel that way. Hal Bodley seems to feel that not only is the MVP a team-success-based award:He also seems to believe it should be a sort of Lifetime Achievement Award:Unbelievable. > > Jeter is a great player, and has had a great year, but Mauer should be AL MVP, in a walk. Or he feels that you should extra bonus points for being a Yankee. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/133 "2009-09-23T04:52:40Z")
I think, in honor of people like **gonzomax** , they should change the name to The Best Player Who Happens to Be on a Really Good Team Award. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/134 "2009-09-23T05:11:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think, in honor of people like **gonzomax** , they should change the name to The Best Player Who Happens to Be on a Really Good Team Award. How about Best Player Award. Then you might have a leg to stand on. As long as it says most valuable .you have to determine value to the team. What value can be ascertained from a last place team? If you are correct, the award is badly misnamed. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/135 "2009-09-23T05:17:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > How about Best Player Award. Then you might have a leg to stand on. As long as it says most valuable .you have to determine value to the team. What value can be ascertained from a last place team? If you are correct, the award is badly misnamed. I will agree that the naming of the award always leads to this argument. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/136 "2009-09-23T05:33:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > How about Best Player Award. Then you might have a leg to stand on. As long as it says most valuable .you have to determine value to the team. What value can be ascertained from a last place team? If you are correct, the award is badly misnamed. The value a player adds to the team is essentially the same whether the team is a good one or a bad one. A good player will help a team win more games than they would have won without him. Winning games is what teams try to do every time they step onto the field, so helping a team win more of them is, by any measure, valuable. If a team will win 85 games without Player X, and 95 games with Player X, then player X has added 10 wins for the team. The crazy stat people even have a name for this: Wins Above Replacement Player, or WARP (That’s oversimplifying a bit, because WARP measures against a baseline of replacement-level [i.e., really crappy] player, and most Major League teams have people they can call on who are better than replacement level).) If a team will win 65 games without Player Y, and 75 games with player Y, then Player Y has added 10 wins for the team. One could even make a pretty strong argument that Player Y has, by this measurement, been _more_ valuable than Player X. After all, by adding 10 wins, Player X increased his team’s win total by 11.76%. But Player Y, by adding 10 wins, has increased his team’s win total by 15.38%. If you’re going to define “most valuable” in your highly subjective and arbitrary way, rather than as a measure of how well the player actually played during the season, you also have to be aware of some of the other possible contradictions. After all, if this is true: > [@gonzomax](#): > > They would have finished last if you broke your leg on opening day. With your fine playing they came in last. then Ichiro Suzuki shouldn’t have won the AL MVP in 2001. Just replace the word “last” with “first,” and the word “with” with “without.” Sure, he had a great year, but the Mariners won their division by such a huge margin that they could have put a replacement-level player in place of Ichiro and still won the division. By the most generous metric, Ichiro was worth about 10 wins to the Mariners in 2001, above a replacement-level player. They won the division by 14 games, and if Ichiro had broken his leg on opening day they had at least two or three players _better_ than replacement-level who could have taken his place. If they would have won without him, how was he valuable to them? Your system, if taken to its logical conclusion, makes it hard to award the MVP to ANY player on a really deep team, because it can always be argued that the team is so strong that it would have made the playoffs even if that one player had been missing. > [@jsc1953](#): > > I will agree that the naming of the award always leads to this argument. I’d be interested to know if there’s any evidence of the thought processes that went into the name. I’m betting that they stood around and said something like: > [@](#): > > Hmmm, “Best Player”? Not very euphonious, is it, chaps? How about “Most Valuable Player”? Yes, yes, much better. Spot more brandy for you, old chap? Or something like that. They probably never realized that people would be irrational enough to exclude players who were the best, but who were unlucky enough to play for below-average teams. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/137 "2009-09-23T11:58:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Silver Slugger- top player at each position Silver Slugger awards go the best _offensive_ player at each position. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/138 "2009-09-23T12:14:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Silver Slugger awards go the best _offensive_ player at each position. Not _most offensive_ player at each position? 😃 I wonder who would win those awards. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/139 "2009-09-23T13:37:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not _most offensive_ player at each position? 😃 I wonder who would win those awards. Finally, Milton Bradley gets the recognization he deserves. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570/140 "2009-09-23T13:46:12Z")
Yankees won with Gaudin starting and pitching 4and 2/3rds well and then not getting out of the 5th. Angels scratched out 5 runs to equal the 5 the Yanks got on homers. In the ninth, A-Rod knocked in the go ahead on a sacrifice fly. Rivera put the game away for another save. Meanwhile the Rangers and Sox both lost and the Yanks clinched the Wild Card, first team to lock in a playoff berth. They also reduced the magic number for the Division to only 6. They have a 5½ game lead for home field. Biggest Yankees problem is a 4th starter which they probably won’t need for the first round. Concerns are Andy Pettitte and AJ who both looked good in their last starts. AJ goes today in an afternoon game. It is a big test for him, especially against this Angel’s team at their house. CC & the bullpen look solid as does the line-up and the defense. If the Yanks make it out of the first round, they might opt for game 4 as a mix and match game. Start Gaudin and only plan to use him for 3-4 innings. Roll Ace & Joba in as needed to get through 6+ and then go to Coke, Hughes and Mo to close it out. Brian Bruney might not make the post season roster. He never recovered his Spring Training and early season form after returning from his injury. I’m not sure why, but Bruney looks like he might just be one of those injury prone players. Hugh talent but something always derails his seasons. It looks like Robertson will be back and ready to pitch and will probably make the first round. Others are auditioning. The bench is mostly settled barring injury. The Yanks won’t carry three catchers so Cervelli will have to watch and mentally prepare to take over the backup catcher job next year. Pena might make it as a utility man. Gardner is a sure thing. His defense and speed guarantee his spot. As to the MVP: Unlike the other awards it is not best player, but most valuable. This precludes non-contending teams in most cases. It has been that way from the beginning of the award. All other awards I can think of are strictly talent based in theory, though the Gold Glove is often based on who knows what. As the Twins are at least contending, I see no reason why Mauer should not be the MVP this year. However, Cabrera of the Tigers and Teix from the Yanks were both legit contenders when in early September it looked liked the Twins were heading under .500. Jeter was worthy of mention, but never had a shot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-september-2009/508570.md?page=8)