# Baseball Thread June 2008 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [June 1, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344 "2008-06-01T13:18:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/221 "2008-06-29T13:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] Pettitte out-dueled Santana in a tight game yesterday. Mo went 1-2-3 to get his 22nd (I think) save. I keep being amazed by him. At his age, to be this consistently dominant is truly an amazing feat. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, Ford, Riviera. He’s joined the Pantheon. [/QUOTE] I agree and it was good to see Farnsworth do another good job on a day when McCarver went on ad nauseam about how the Yanks needed a starter and a setup guy. Rivera is already the greatest Yankee Closer and in my opinion the greatest closer ever. He tops a list of Yankee greats that include the likes of Johnny ‘Fireman’ Murphy, Joe Page, Luis Arroyo, Cy Young Winning Sparky Lyle, Hall of Famer Goose Gossage, Dave Righetti, World Series MVP John Wetteland. Mo will soon be second on the saves list behind only Hoffman. Another great and enduring closer who appears to finally be slowing down. What puts Mo over the top is his incredible post season work. No one is in a category with him for closing. * * * The dynamic duo on Fox yesterday started talking about Pettitte making the HOF. I figure he would have to decide to pitch another 2-4 years at least and at a high level. He is currently 210 and 118 with a gaudy .640 winning percentage but his ERA is 3.84 vs League ERA of 4.52 and 1912 Ks to 816 BBs. He has 2 20 game winning seasons and 4 top 5 Cy Young votes. Overall if he retired today, I would not vote for him. He has been a very good pitcher, but not a great pitcher and does not have the accumulations that so many pitchers of his level have use to sneak into the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/222 "2008-06-29T15:22:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **What Exit?** > > The dynamic duo on Fox yesterday started talking about Pettitte making the HOF. I figure he would have to decide to pitch another 2-4 years at least and at a high level. He is currently 210 and 118 with a gaudy .640 winning percentage but his ERA is 3.84 vs League ERA of 4.52 and 1912 Ks to 816 BBs. He has 2 20 game winning seasons and 4 top 5 Cy Young votes. > > Overall if he retired today, I would not vote for him. He has been a very good pitcher, but not a great pitcher and does not have the accumulations that so many pitchers of his level have use to sneak into the Hall. I agree. As much as I like him, he doesn’t pass the “eye test” for me. I’ve watched most of his career, and while he has sometimes been excellent, he has rarely been dominant. His stats merit consideration though, and if he wins another 30+ games without severely compromising his winning percentage his chances will go up significantly. Plus, and I’ve mentioned this before, he pitched the greatest game I ever saw: Game 5 of the '96 Series, out-dueling Smoltz with a one hitter (8 1/3 IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/223 "2008-06-29T15:39:28Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] Plus, and I’ve mentioned this before, he pitched the greatest game I ever saw: Game 5 of the '96 Series, out-dueling Smoltz with a one hitter (8 1/3 IIRC). [/QUOTE] That was his greatest moment. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/224 "2008-06-29T16:48:12Z")
I put Pettitte in the exact same category as Curt Schilling. Very good, not HOF class though. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/225 "2008-06-30T01:18:43Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] The dynamic duo on Fox yesterday started talking about Pettitte making the HOF. I figure he would have to decide to pitch another 2-4 years at least and at a high level. He is currently 210 and 118 with a gaudy .640 winning percentage but his ERA is 3.84 vs League ERA of 4.52 and 1912 Ks to 816 BBs. He has 2 20 game winning seasons and 4 top 5 Cy Young votes. Overall if he retired today, I would not vote for him. He has been a very good pitcher, but not a great pitcher and does not have the accumulations that so many pitchers of his level have use to sneak into the Hall. [/QUOTE] That’s a pretty good assessment of his virtues, but in fairness, his career ERA is better, relative to his league, than many Hall of Famers. His ERA+ is 118, which is better than Steve Carlton. I know his ERA doesn’t look great at first glance, but it’s in the context of a high scoring environment. His problem is not that he has not pitched well enough, but that by Hall of Fame standards, his career is very short. (To finished the Carlton comparison, Carlton pitched about twice as many innings as Pettite has so far.) I can cite many Hall of Famers with inferior ERAs, but most of them pitched a LOT more. So if Pettite actually pitched 4 more years, and was good, you have to admit he’d have an argument. He’d be well above 250 wins. Right now he doesn’t. Curt Schilling is presently a much stronger candidate - a much better career ERA, almost 600 more innings, and lots of playoff mojo. And he’s not a strong candidate. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/226 "2008-06-30T01:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Curt Schilling is presently a much stronger candidate - a much better career ERA, almost 600 more innings, and lots of playoff mojo. And he’s not a strong candidate. [/QUOTE] He may not be great, but he has the image. Three World Series, including the Red Sox in 2004 (his first season with them) to end the 86-year streak, bloody-sock and all. I think he has a chance to make it in based just on that. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/227 "2008-06-30T02:39:33Z")
Yay! The Reds take 5 of 6 from the Indians in interleague play this season, which invariably means…NOTHING! Hooray! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/228 "2008-06-30T13:37:43Z")
[QUOTE=bouv] He may not be great, but he has the image. Three World Series, including the Red Sox in 2004 (his first season with them) to end the 86-year streak, bloody-sock and all. I think he has a chance to make it in based just on that. [/QUOTE] Sad but true, he will earn many extra votes for that night. It is odd, I don’t like Curt and I like Andy enough that finding out he used HGH actually offended me as a fan. That said, I tend to think of Curt as someone that will make the Hall and as Andy as someone that will not. But then if he gets another 40+ wins to 20 or so losses, I will probably think differently. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/229 "2008-06-30T14:45:23Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Yay! The Reds take 5 of 6 from the Indians in interleague play this season, which invariably means…NOTHING! Hooray! [/QUOTE] Says you. I appreciate the Reds sinking the good ship Cleveland for us. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/230 "2008-06-30T14:46:31Z")
I think Schilling is going to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Mostly because of the sock. I don’t want to diminish his career and achievements, though. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/231 "2008-06-30T15:03:49Z")
Here’s another HOF candidate: Does Jim Thome get in? 522 home runs is impressive even in this era. But, he’s never been a totally dominant player. 5 time all star. I’ll say he gets in a weak year. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/232 "2008-06-30T15:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Here’s another HOF candidate: Does Jim Thome get in? 522 home runs is impressive even in this era. But, he’s never been a totally dominant player. 5 time all star. I’ll say he gets in a weak year. [/QUOTE] A very weak year. Actually, after a couple of very weak years. I really hate scoffing at 522, though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/233 "2008-06-30T15:30:58Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Here’s another HOF candidate: Does Jim Thome get in? 522 home runs is impressive even in this era. But, he’s never been a totally dominant player. 5 time all star. I’ll say he gets in a weak year. [/QUOTE] My first quick impression is no, he is not a Hall of Famer. However, looking at his numbers, he will eventually sneak in as another accumulator. From the always useful [Baseball-reference](http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomeji01.shtml) we get these numbers: Black Ink: Batting - 13 (177) (Average HOFer ≈ 27) Gray Ink: Batting - 118 (165) (Average HOFer ≈ 144) HOF Standards: Batting - 51.2 (67) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 139.5 (92) (Likely HOFer \> 100) He falls very short on Black Ink and short on Gray Ink and just barely makes the HOF standards. It is only on the Monitor he looks like a HOFer. My gut says that he loses votes for not being impressive enough as a 1st baseman and I give him no credit for his defensive play that never impressed me. He has only had one top 5 MVP year. To me he has simply had a good long career in a time of inflated offensive stats and his 522 home run don’t mean what 500 use to mean in the past. If I was a voter for the Hall of Fame, I would apparently be a tough voter however. Please note, I am even tough on my own favorite players. I have always said Mattingly is not a Hall of Famer and many Yankee fans disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/234 "2008-06-30T16:05:24Z")
Catch up time. I never thought I would be so thrilled to see Ryan Church. > [@](#): > > Is Ben Sheets serious about not even being to consider an offer from the Brewers? Does he think he is A-rod? I don’t think that is what Sheets said. I believe he said he wouldn’t accept an offer from them without hearing offers from other teams. Given that the team has made no effort to lock him up early, it seems like a reasonable position for him to take. > [@](#): > > I was thinking that the Giants, Padres, and Rockies will start to do the things that teams who are out of it by the All Star Break do. They’ll trade away some players, let injuries to key players take a long time to heal, and play some youngsters. Thus, they’ll start losing even more games. There is still a decent amount of division play left, so I think the Dodgers and D-backs will both end up comfortably above .500 The thing is that the Dbacks and Dodgers have struggled enough that those three aren’t really out of it, and have no reason not play for this year. The Rockies are actually probably in better position than last year. > [@](#): > > He may not be great, but he has the image. Three World Series, including the Red Sox in 2004 (his first season with them) to end the 86-year streak, bloody-sock and all. I think he has a chance to make it in based just on that. I am a big believer in that post season accomplishments are vastly overrated in evaluating players. However, they aren’t meaningless, and Schilling is exactly the type of player they should help. His regular season numbers are perhaps not hall worthy, but they are certainly close. On top of that, in the most important innings he has pitched, he has been dominate. It isn’t just the bloody sock. In 2001 he threw 48.1 innings, struck out 56, gave up 6 runs, 25 hits, 6 walks, and was 4-0. He has thrown 133 post season innings with an era of 2.23 against the best competition in baseball. That is phenomenal. Pettitte is a significant step below. To me, he has always been a very good pitcher on great teams, a bit overrated due to the latter part. Mussina is the more interesting case. I thought he was bound for the Hall with Balt, but he is never has been quite as good with the Yankees. Let’s see how long his resurgance lasts. > [@](#): > > Here’s another HOF candidate: Does Jim Thome get in? > 522 home runs is impressive even in this era. But, he’s never been a totally dominant player. 5 time all star. > > I’ll say he gets in a weak year. I would vote for Thome. He has been great at the two things that are most valuable for hitters to do, hit home-runs, and get on base. He has been overshadowed due to great teammates, but other than one injury marred year in Philly, he has been a consistent offensive force. Lots of modern players have put up seasons similar to Thome, but very few have done it for as long as he has. Another couple good years should cement his ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/235 "2008-06-30T16:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Says you. I appreciate the Reds sinking the good ship Cleveland for us. [/QUOTE] Hah. While I enjoy beating any configuration of sports teams from Cleveland, what I meant was that ultimately, it does little for the Reds in the long run unless they have an amazing second half of the season. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/236 "2008-06-30T16:31:41Z")
[QUOTE=Hawkeyeop] I would vote for Thome. He has been great at the two things that are most valuable for hitters to do, hit home-runs, and get on base. He has been overshadowed due to great teammates, but other than one injury marred year in Philly, he has been a consistent offensive force. Lots of modern players have put up seasons similar to Thome, but very few have done it for as long as he has. [/QUOTE] Thome is one of those players who is great, but you sort of admit it grudgingly. He’s not a super athletic or entertaining player. He just hits home runs and gets on base. But he’s done it extremely well; his career adjusted OPS is tied for the 39th best in the history of baseball, and it’s on-base heavy. In human lingo, what that means is that the guy may not look like much but he gets the job done; for every 162 games he has played he has driven in 112 runs and scored 107. Even adjusting for his being in a high-scoring era, he has been a genuinely great hitter. People talk about Jim Rice being a Hall of Famer, but Thome has been a WAY better hitter in a career of the same length. As a hitter he’s basically a shorter-career version of Willie McCovey, and he’s still going. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/237 "2008-07-01T04:33:28Z")
Tigers beat the Twins coming back from a 4 to 1 deficit. Zumaya closed the 9th. Interesting. Zumaya is the closer in waiting because Jones is 75 years old (approx). This could be a fun series. Cubs swept the Sox,then the Sox swept the Cubs. What did that prove? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/238 "2008-07-01T04:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Cubs swept the Sox,then the Sox swept the Cubs. What did that prove? [/QUOTE] It proves that, if you get the Cubs away from Wrigley, they’re a very beatable team. ---
**Author:** ![cards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@cards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cards)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/239 "2008-07-01T15:04:05Z")
Let’s hope so for the three game series this weekend at Busch. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344/240 "2008-07-01T15:39:56Z")
[QUOTE=cards] Let’s hope so for the three game series this weekend at Busch. [/QUOTE] The Cubs are at Busch this weekend?!?! Why was I not informed?! (My goofing off time has been seriously curtailed lately. I haven’t paid much attention the past week or so). That should be a great series. Luckily Pujols is back now. Too bad Wainwright won’t be back till after the All-Star break, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseball-thread-june-2008/451344.md?page=13)