# Baseball's Rookie of the Year **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015 "2001-11-13T00:11:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thermalribbon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@thermalribbon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thermalribbon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/21 "2001-11-16T17:08:20Z")
Ichiro has the best arm of any rightfielder in the game. The play that confirmed that was in mid April in a game vs. the A’s. Suzuki gunned a guy down at third on a throw from deep right field. The ball never hit the ground, it was just a seed right into the third basemen’s glove and the runner was out by three or four steps. From that point on, nobody ran on Suzuki. He has a better arm than Dye, Mondesi or Guererro. As for ROY, I am from Cleveland and you can call me a homer, but Sabathia pitched so well after the break and ended up being the best starter on the team. For a 21 year old kid who only pitched about a half a year of minor-league ball prior to this season, that is remarkable. Suzuki is a complete player right now and Sabathia isn’t, so I understand why he was given the award. However, I was a little more surprised that the BBWAA didn’t give Sabathia more votes. I didn’t think that the vote was that clear of a runaway! ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/22 "2001-11-16T17:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*The kind of moron who thinks that going 17-5 your rookie year, with no prior major league experience and only 86.1 innings of professional experience prior to his 200 season, is pretty deserving of a Rookie of the Year award, I’d imagine. \*\* Sounds pretty good. Until you compare it with a guy who not only almost set a MLB record for hits in a season as a rookie, as has been mentioned, he was also facing a pitcher he’d never seen anywhere every time he trotted onto the field. He’ll also likely win a Gold Glove, and is already one of the most feared base-stealers in the game. Add to that the cultural adjustments he had to make without seemingly missing a beat, and Ichiro’s season is historic in its accomplishments. Sabathia’s season, uh, is not. Or is ERA in irrelevant statistic in measuring an individual pitcher? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/23 "2001-11-16T18:01:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Ichiro has the best arm of any rightfielder in the game. The play that confirmed that was in mid April in a game vs. the A’s. Suzuki gunned a guy down at third on a throw from deep right field. The ball never hit the ground, it was just a seed right into the third basemen’s glove and the runner was out by three or four steps. From that point on, nobody ran on Suzuki. He has a better arm than Dye, Mondesi or Guererro. If so, I stand corrected. 🙂 MY MVP cons for Ichiro are revised thusly: MVP cons: A singles hitter. Relatively low OPS (slugging plus on-base). It’s hard to make a big impact defensively from right field, even if you have a cannon for an arm. May not even be the most valuable player on his own team (see Boone, Bret). ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/24 "2001-11-16T18:08:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by storyteller0910 \* > This year, Suzuki saw Pedro Martinez’s fastball, Mariano Rivera’s cutter, Roger Clemens’ splitter, and Barry Zito’s curveball, all for the first time EVER. So never mind that most established major league hitters can’t hit those pitches; Ichiro had to do it while completely unfamiliar with what to expect. > > That’s why he deserves the ROY award, IMO. Because while he has lots of experience, he has no experience with these particular players. So, as regards his ability to hit against them, he is a rookie, in the truest sense of the word. By this logic, a player should be eligible for the ROY award if he goes from the NL to the AL. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Gadarene_ > It’s hard to make a big impact defensively from right field, even if you have a cannon for an arm. I would tend to disagree with this. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/25 "2001-11-16T18:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Gadarene_ > > It’s hard to make a big impact defensively from right field, even if you have a cannon for an arm. > > I would tend to disagree with this. Well, the impact of a player’s defense over the course of a season is notoriously difficult to determine. But it’s generally accepted sabermetrically that the defensive spectrum runs, from least difficult to most difficult, like so: 1B – LF – RF – 3B – CF – 2B – SS – C I guess I was engaging in subjective quantification–that is, I think it’s difficult to have a “big impact defensively” from one of the leftward positions on the spectrum no matter how good your defense is. I’m not saying it can’t be done, or that right fielders (or left fielders, or first basemen) can’t affect the outcome of a game with their defense; of course they can. But I don’t count the defense of a right fielder as a huge factor in determining whether they deserve to be MVP. (By the way, Ichiro Suzuki had eight outfield assists last season. Jermaine Dye had thirteen; Vladimir Guerrero had fifteen; Raul Mondesi had nineteen. I realize that doesn’t take into account the “intimidation factor,” but the arms of Guerrero, Dye, and Mondesi have been feared for a lot longer. Regardless, I’m perfectly willing to believe that Ichiro is the best defensive right fielder in the AL–and that he’d be a great defensive center fielder as well. This makes him more valuable defensively, in my eyes, than one of the top MVP candidates–Jason Giambi. But Alomar, Boone, and Rodriguez are far more important defensively. So I think Ichiro was the fifth-best player in the league, arm notwithstanding.) ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/26 "2001-11-16T19:10:49Z")
OK, no argument. I would give it to Rodriguez, then Boone. My feeling is that the offensive numbers that a player must be compared to the average of players who play his position. Thus if the average shortstop hits, say, 8 HRs, then Rodriguez is adding 44 (or thereabouts - I forget exactly) to the team. This tends to inflate the value of middle infielders over first baseman and outfielders. ---
**Author:** ![tulley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@tulley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tulley)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/27 "2001-11-16T19:25:45Z")
Its a shame that Rodriguez’s team (specifically their pitching) was so terrible, otherwise I think he’d be a lock for the mvp. The numbers that he put up in the shortstop position were mind boggling, and he is a terrific defensive player too. Ichiro for MVP? I don’t see it. Sure he hit .350, but a lead-off hitter’s job is to get on base. His on base % was only .380. By contrast, the last leadoff hitter to get MVP was Ricky Henderson in 1990, and his OBP was .440. I don’t personally think Boone should get it, although I think he will. To me he’s a journeyman second baseman who had a lucky year. Kinda like Jeff Kent, who I also didn’t think deserved it despite his awesome numbers last year. Like boone I think he was a product of a favorable lineup. My vote? Giambi. All right I’m biased cuz I’m an A’s fan, but if Giambi isn’t there carrying the A’s while they limped through the first half, you have no Jermaine Dye trade, most likely you would have seen a fire sale getting rid of Izzy, Damon, and possibly Giambi himself. Its very possible that the A’s would have been a completely different team - and one that wouldn’t have made the playoffs - had Giambi not been around. Toss in his leadership skills on a young team and you have as good an MVP as you can ask for. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/28 "2001-11-16T19:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > My feeling is that the offensive numbers that a player must be compared to the average of players who play his position. You’ll love [VORP](http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/woolner/vorpdescnew.htm), then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/29 "2001-11-17T01:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jcgmoi \* > **[This AP story](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011112/sp/bbo_rookies_7.html) credits _Chris Assenheimer_ of the Chronicle-Telegram in Elyria, Ohio for that idiosycratic vote.** Is that his real name, or were they making fun of him? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/30 "2001-11-17T03:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manduck \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jcgmoi \* > > **[This AP story](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011112/sp/bbo_rookies_7.html) credits _Chris Assenheimer_ of the Chronicle-Telegram in Elyria, Ohio for that idiosycratic vote.** > > Is that his real name, or were they making fun of him? 😃 \*\* LOL **Manduck** **thermalribbon** , I saw Ichiro throw a guy out on the same kind of a throw in a different game IIRC. It was awesome - a strike to 3rd from deep right - it didn’t seem like the ball got over 6 feet in the air all the way, and the third baseman caught it on the fly and held the ball for the runner to slide into. It seemed like the third baseman waited for a second or two, like, “Is this guy ever going to get here???” ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/31 "2001-11-17T15:43:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > > \*\*These are the same rules that keep some “kids” from even being eligible because they got a little too much playing time in the bigs at the end of one season. Chad Curtis comes to mind as an example- he was called up from AAA by California to play out the end of a year, did quite well for himself, but really didn’t have enough games played that year to be considered. The following year, he was ineligible because he had played too many games already! \*\* > > Are you sure you mean Chad Curtis? He was never a late season callup. His first appearance in the major leagues was in 1992, and he played the whole year and was California’s regular center fielder; he hit .259 with 10 homers. He got no Rookie of the Year support; the winner was Pat Listach, followed by Kenny Lofton, Dave Fleming, and Cal Eldred. > > Perhaps you meant Darin Erstad; he matches your description perfectly. \*\* Damn **RickJay** , you may be right about Chad, as it looks like you have stats. I was going from memory, having had a friend on the team at the time. I could have sworn he got playing time prior to his first full season, but I could be confused, as there were a lot of potentially talented kids on the team at that time (Curtis, Salmon, Edmonds). ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/32 "2001-11-17T16:23:26Z")
Are we talking about ROY or MVP? As for MVP, it’s Giambi again. A-Rod’s team was woeful. And while it’s not unprecedented for a player on such a team to win the award, it certainly doesn’t help. Ichiro and Boone will be hurt by the same thing that always keeps Yankees from winning these kinds of rewards. Their club’s success is largely a team effort, with several very good players splitting each other’s votes for individual awards. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/33 "2001-11-17T21:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*Damn **RickJay** , you may be right about Chad, as it looks like you have stats. I was going from memory, having had a friend on the team at the time. I could have sworn he got playing time prior to his first full season, but I could be confused, as there were a lot of potentially talented kids on the team at that time (Curtis, Salmon, Edmonds). \*\* Could have been Jim Edmonds, too; he had a brief callup in 1993 that disqualified him for the ROY in 1994. Tim Salmon had a brief callup in 1992 but he actually did win the Rookie of the Year Award in 1993 (by a unanimous vote!) But I think you were thinking of Erstad. Who was your friend? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/34 "2001-11-20T20:51:55Z")
So Ichiro is the MVP. And my guy, Rodriguez, is only 6th. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/35 "2001-11-21T00:35:18Z")
Alex didn’t pitch for Texas. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/36 "2001-11-21T03:16:46Z")
[Comic Book Guy] Worst MVP _ever_. [/Comic Book Guy] I’d have gone for Giambi or A-Rod, even though I know A-Rod didn’t have a prayer because the Rangers sucked. But _Ichiro_? Shoot, he wasn’t even the most valuable player for the Mariners. (That would be Bret Boone.) Jesus Christ, the guy was _14th_ in the AL in on-base percentage! This is the guy who’s supposed to be God’s own leadoff hitter? Giambi’s OBP beat Ichiro by nearly .100 points, and Giambi outslugged him by nearly .200! Seriously, which guy do you want on your team? ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/37 "2001-11-21T03:37:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > Seriously, which guy do you want on your team? \*\* Seriously, Ichiro. On a side note, if I could right now eliminate roto league baseball and all the stat-crunching half wits it generates (Rob Neyer included) I would do it without a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/38 "2001-11-21T04:16:47Z")
On what grounds would you take Suzuki over Giambi? ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/39 "2001-11-21T04:21:55Z")
I would have to say defense, runs scored, bases stolen, total hits, the ability to manufacture runs, a cooler jersey, a better haircut, and oh yeah the 2001 MVP award. What about you? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015/40 "2001-11-21T05:51:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JDeMobray \* > \*\*I would have to say defense, runs scored, bases stolen, total hits, the ability to manufacture runs, a cooler jersey, a better haircut, and oh yeah the 2001 MVP award. > > What about you? \*\* In terms of actually being a more valuable baseball player, I’d take Jason Giambi. And Alex Rodriguez. And in 2001, I’d take Roberto Alomar, too, over Ichiro. He was a bad choice. He wasn’t the worst MVP ever, or even close to it, though; I can think of ten worse choices and not even have to look up a list. I’m looking at you, Andre Dawson. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baseballs-rookie-of-the-year/93015.md?page=3)