# Basement finishing and construction permits **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019 "2018-09-27T13:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/21 "2018-09-27T17:42:43Z")
Say that the electrical work for the refinish was performed well and to code, but no permit was obtained and no inspection performed. A couple of years later an electrical fire occurs and causes significant damage or burns the house down. Would the fact that the work was not permitted/inspected cause some difficulty with Homeowner’s insurance? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/22 "2018-09-27T17:53:47Z")
> [@MindsEye\_Watering](#): > > Say that the electrical work for the refinish was performed well and to code, but no permit was obtained and no inspection performed. > > A couple of years later an electrical fire occurs and causes significant damage or burns the house down. > > Would the fact that the work was not permitted/inspected cause some difficulty with Homeowner’s insurance? Almost certainly, in virtually any jurisdiction. Insurance companies aren’t your friends and all policies I’ve read contained provisions excluding losses that might result from unpermitted/uninspected modifications of the covered property. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/23 "2018-09-27T18:13:18Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Almost certainly, in virtually any jurisdiction. Insurance companies aren’t your friends and all policies I’ve read contained provisions excluding losses that might result from unpermitted/uninspected modifications of the covered property. The insurance company, the bank and the government don’t really have a clue as to what was original what was permitted, what was changed, who changed it, or when it was changed. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/24 "2018-09-27T18:17:51Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > OK, I’ll level with you. > > Legally, without knowing the specific laws of Cobb County or your municipality, you’ll be required to get a permit. As someone who follows the law, that’s what you should do. > > However, the main purpose of the permitting process is NOT to make sure your house is safe. You’re finishing a basement, not building a high rise. They will almost certainly not inspect the work and they most likely won’t even require any type of plan beyond ‘putting up drywall and putting down flooring’ as long as your contractor is licensed. (The last permit I got took five minutes, with half of that time being how long it took to run the credit card and the work being done line said “Putting metal roof on house.” Their real concern was how much it was going to cost. Electrical work they might be a bit more concerned about, but even then they might not bother inspecting.) Any even vaguely reputable contractor should be able to easily finish a basement with no problems. The purpose in this case of the permitting process is to up your assessment at the tax office. They will send a slip to your local taxing authority that now says your finished square footing is 500 square feet or whatever larger which ups their equation for your house value and ups your property taxes. So… if I were an immoral person or someone who thought the government had enough money, then… well, I don’t want to tell you what you should or shouldn’t do. I will say that I am one of those filthy liberals and I always do get the permit and I always do watch my taxes creep up, but that’s the price of sharing community services that benefit everyone. This is kind of what I expected, and what one contractor warned us about. He said that the only way the county would find out if we did work without a permit is if a spiteful neighbor turned us in. He soft-pedalled the issue of what happens when we sell. Paying more tax is no fun, but I’m with you on the principle. Ironically, just yesterday a tax assessor from the county knocked on the door and asked me some questions about the house, and then took some measurements of the exterior. He didn’t come inside, but he did ask specifically if the basement was finished. So I guess I won’t be able to claim, when we sell, that the previous owner had had the work done. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > It would also help if you told us what rooms you expected to have in the basement. There is a different code for rec rooms, bathrooms and bedrooms. You might be required to provide egress to the outside. If a bathroom is installed, you might need a back-flow preventer for the sewer line. Basements can be very tricky when you use them for living space. No bedrooms, but an outside door and windows are already in place. We’ll have one big space, 15x33 feet, that will be a TV room/library/playroom, plus a bathroom, store room, closet, furnace room, and workshop/storage space. And perhaps a [secret room](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=861656). > [@Chefguy](#): > > For the OP. GET THE PERMITS, and make sure the inspections are done. When you sell your house, the buyer, if he is smart, will ask about any work done and will check to see if permits were pulled, inspections made, and that it was closed out. Yes, even if I were inclined to be sneaky, this is one of the most compelling reasons to get permits, since we will probably not spend our retirement in this house, and could move within ten years or so. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/25 "2018-09-27T18:23:39Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > He didn’t come inside, but he did ask specifically if the basement was finished. So I guess I won’t be able to claim, when we sell, that the previous owner had had the work done. In my opinion a basement isn’t really finished until it’s painted the perfect color. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/26 "2018-09-27T19:02:15Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > The insurance company, the bank and the government don’t really have a clue as to what was original what was permitted, what was changed, who changed it, or when it was changed. But the government does know about the state of my basement: when we bought the house a few months ago the basement was listed as unfinished in the real estate listings, which were almost certainly derived from county records. And, as I mentioned above, I confirmed that with a county official yesterday. Wouldn’t the fact that the county knew that the basement wasn’t finished in 2018, and was finished when the theoretical fire occurred, allow an insurance company/bank/etc. infer that if no permits can be found the work was not permitted? Maybe they don’t always bother to check, but they certainly could if they wanted to, couldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/27 "2018-09-27T19:33:56Z")
Of course they’ll check! It’s called loss control and it’s routine for any significant claim. The insurer would like nothing better than to collect years and years of premiums then deny your claim and cancel your coverage. People pull this all the time, make modifications that they think can be hidden and so avoid permits and inspections. Then comes the fire. And the insurance adjuster asks the fire department what they found in the ‘unfinished basement’ that started the conflagration. Sure enough, there’s electrical conduit (or just Romex) all over the place, along with the remains of interior walls, furniture, toilet, etc… And no permit or inspection saying that such additions were done correctly. You lose! The policy is void and you eat the entire loss. Avoiding required permitting procedures is penny wise but pound foolish. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/28 "2018-09-27T19:42:16Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > But the government does know about the state of my basement: when we bought the house a few months ago the basement was listed as unfinished in the real estate listings, which were almost certainly derived from county records. And, as I mentioned above, I confirmed that with a county official yesterday. Wouldn’t the fact that the county knew that the basement wasn’t finished in 2018, and was finished when the theoretical fire occurred, allow an insurance company/bank/etc. infer that if no permits can be found the work was not permitted? Maybe they don’t always bother to check, but they certainly could if they wanted to, couldn’t they? Plenty of basements have electrical/plumbing/drywall but aren’t finished and it’s really hard to prove when the improvements occurred. Unless it can be seen on an aerial photo (outbuildings and additions) it’s very hard for anyone to prove anything. If you’re thinking of spending 35K on this I would get the permits just so you can clearly realize and insure the added value. I’m just saying plenty of basements have been finished without permits and it eventually just works it’s way through the system without anyone caring. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/29 "2018-09-27T19:54:27Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Of course they’ll check! It’s called loss control and it’s routine for any significant claim. The insurer would like nothing better than to collect years and years of premiums then deny your claim and cancel your coverage. > > People pull this all the time, make modifications that they think can be hidden and so avoid permits and inspections. Then comes the fire. And the insurance adjuster asks the fire department what they found in the ‘unfinished basement’ that started the conflagration. Sure enough, there’s electrical conduit (or just Romex) all over the place, along with the remains of interior walls, furniture, toilet, etc… And no permit or inspection saying that such additions were done correctly. You lose! The policy is void and you eat the entire loss. > > Avoiding required permitting procedures is penny wise but pound foolish. My insurance company didn’t inspect my house when they insured it. They don’t know the state of the outlets or how many there are or who installed them or when they were installed. If it isn’t a one owner house does anyone really know which outlets were permitted and which aren’t? As long as you have a mortgage the insurance company really works for the bank and everyone has a pretty good incentive to replace the house with something of similar value. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/30 "2018-09-27T20:25:23Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/31 "2018-09-27T20:32:41Z")
No, the insurance company works for its stockholders. It makes more profit whenever it doesn’t have to pay out a claim. It has no incentive to pay out big bucks to rebuild your house so you’ll be happy and the bank will have something to hold a mortgage on. In most places (2018, US of A) houses are built according to locally defined building codes by licensed tradesmen and inspected by government agents. So to a great extent insurers can rely on some minimum standards and may not demand inspections. But older houses or houses with questionable provenance are routinely required to be inspected by licensed independent professionals before a bank will grant the mortgage or an insurer will write the policy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/32 "2018-09-27T21:05:32Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > No bedrooms, but an outside door and windows are already in place. We’ll have one big space, 15x33 feet, that will be a TV room/library/playroom, plus a bathroom, store room, closet, furnace room, and workshop/storage space. And perhaps a [secret room](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=861656). OK. The main issue is the bathroom. Where I live, you must have a fan in every bathroom and GFCI outlets. We also have to have occupancy sensors on the main light switch, but that might just be CA. As for the large room, you need arc fault protected outlets (where I live, in CA). But get the permit. It’ll be worth the peace of mind if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/33 "2018-09-27T21:45:41Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > … > > I have had contractors do smaller jobs, like replacing the toilet & vanity in a bathroom, without pulling a permit. But those are smaller jobs where the plumbing going on is pretty minimal, and I was reasonably confident I could see for myself if they did an adequate job. Would replacing a toilet or vanity require a permit? I replaced my toilet and didn’t even think of such a thing and likewise I would not consider a vanity replacement requires one either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/34 "2018-09-27T21:48:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Would replacing a toilet or vanity require a permit? I replaced my toilet and didn’t even think of such a thing and likewise I would not consider a vanity replacement requires one either. Usually not, unless you are putting in new plumbing lines or adding fixtures. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/35 "2018-09-28T02:09:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Usually not, unless you are putting in new plumbing lines or adding fixtures. And even then, it would likely be a conditional permit. Tradesmen buy them by the book and use them when appropriate instead of having to go hang around at the county office. For an electrician, it’s usually a matter of just peel-and-stick inside the panel box. We’re having our tub replaced with a walk-in shower and the plumber will have to replace the existing drain with a 2" drain and do some other miscellaneous piping changes, which only requires a conditional permit. ---
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/36 "2018-09-28T13:01:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It is required (here, at least) that any deck more than 30" off the ground requires a permit. Most people don’t do it, and our contractor really didn’t want to do it, but we insisted. > > For the OP. GET THE PERMITS, and make sure the inspections are done. When you sell your house, the buyer, if he is smart, will ask about any work done and will check to see if permits were pulled, inspections made, and that it was closed out. I, for one, would not buy a home where the permits were not in place for any work that required it. If I did, I would be assuming a liability and become the owner of the issue whenever I in turn sold the house. When we bought our present home, there was a permit that had not been closed out by the county. Getting that done was a condition of sale for us. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/37 "2018-09-28T17:58:45Z")
True story: When my wife moved to this area, she was looking at houses in the 2400 sq. ft. range. We found one for her that was quite a bit bigger, but at a good price. One attractive feature was a very nice bonus room that had been an unfinished attic. It even had a wet bar. She proceeded. Yup. Not a single permit had been pulled. Every bit of the electrical, plumbing, framing, and other work was unpermitted. The house inspector caught on first, and then the mortgage company, real estate agent, and everyone else said, “Whoa! Stop right there.” Turns out that this was the reason it was so reasonably priced…the owners had several offers that were all withdrawn when the lack of permits was discovered. As I recall, our agent actually demanded that the listing be changed to reflect its true (pre-renovation) square footage, since technically the attic was still “unfinished” and would have to be retroactively permitted prior to sale. I can’t comment on the legal issues here, but they were unanimous that we could/should not proceed. (The mortgage company just plain said, “No way.”) We just walked away. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/38 "2018-09-30T05:17:03Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > True story: When my wife moved to this area, she was looking at houses in the 2400 sq. ft. range. We found one for her that was quite a bit bigger, but at a good price. One attractive feature was a very nice bonus room that had been an unfinished attic. It even had a wet bar. She proceeded. > > Yup. Not a single permit had been pulled. Every bit of the electrical, plumbing, framing, and other work was unpermitted. The house inspector caught on first, and then the mortgage company, real estate agent, and everyone else said, “Whoa! Stop right there.” Turns out that this was the reason it was so reasonably priced…the owners had several offers that were all withdrawn when the lack of permits was discovered. As I recall, our agent actually demanded that the listing be changed to reflect its true (pre-renovation) square footage, since technically the attic was still “unfinished” and would have to be retroactively permitted prior to sale. I can’t comment on the legal issues here, but they were unanimous that we could/should not proceed. (The mortgage company just plain said, “No way.”) > > We just walked away. Was the work done by the homeowner or an amateur, and not to code? Or was it done well, by a competent worker, to code, but simply without permits? ISTM that the former would be more likely to draw the kind of attention you describe than the latter. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/39 "2018-09-30T17:33:39Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Was the work done by the homeowner or an amateur, and not to code? Or was it done well, by a competent worker, to code, but simply without permits? ISTM that the former would be more likely to draw the kind of attention you describe than the latter. But that’s just the problem with non-permitted work. You can’t tell what the quality of it may be. Are you gonna dig up the floors or rip into the walls to assess the electrical, plumbing, or structural quality? Is all the wiring copper and of the correct gauge? Are gang boxes properly attached and grounded? Are the receptacles of decent quality or 29 cent imported crap? Are the pipes of proper size and material? Correctly connected? And “structural work” - ?!!?! Really? Even competent, conscientious contractors can make mistakes, including big mistakes. Or overlook errors made by their subs. And even reasonably honest people may cut a corner here or there, especially when no one is looking over their shoulder. That’s why there are permits (to define a minimum standard) and inspections (to ensure those standards are adhered to). Change out a toilet? Replace a ceiling fan? No permit needed. “Finish” an entire basement, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars? Permits! For your present and future protection. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019/40 "2018-10-01T14:55:30Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Was the work done by the homeowner or an amateur, and not to code? Or was it done well, by a competent worker, to code, but simply without permits? ISTM that the former would be more likely to draw the kind of attention you describe than the latter. The owner said it was done by “licensed contractors,” but we had no way of proving that or assessing the quality of the work. The owner said he had tried to get it permitted retroactively, but was advised that it would require some demolition in order to inspect the framing, floor, electrical, and plumbing work. The original listing called it an “800 sq. ft. bonus room” and this was what the agent demanded be removed from the listing. One thing we DID notice was that the wall outlets were not spaced per NEC. That was probably a clue of sorts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basement-finishing-and-construction-permits/822019.md?page=1)