# Basic football rules question **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 1, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990 "2009-11-01T23:00:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/1 "2009-11-01T23:00:50Z")
At what point is the offense considered “set” after which any movement prior to the snap means a false start penalty? You see it a lot in college, but also in the NFL - the line is set and the quaterback takes position, but then stands up and looks to the sideline. Often the O Linemen stand up and move around as well. I remember way back in the 70’s that the Dallas Cowboys O line would take their three point stances, then as a group they would stand up and get back in their stances. So what is the point in time where you can’t move any more? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/2 "2009-11-02T00:10:52Z")
Depends what the motion is. If it’s something that the referee thinks is designed to deceive the defense and/or induce an offside, for instance, it’s a false start. If it’s a shift or a motion then there are different rules in effect - players have to reset after the shift and establish a still position for I think a full second before the snap. One player can be in motion at the snap, though. Edited to add: to answer more directly, there is no “point of no return,” except that they have to do so before the snap. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/3 "2009-11-02T00:47:38Z")
I have another rules question I’m going to tack onto this thread. I was watching a college football game yesterday and there was a play where the defense jumped offsides, but did not make contact. The center snapped the ball and the offense ran a play. This is typically considered a ‘free play’ because if it goes wrong they accept the penalty and repeat the down, but if it is successful, they may be better off with the results of the play. On this particular play, however, there was an offsetting offensive penalty during the play (something like holding or illegal block). My question is: does the off-setting penalty negate the ‘free play’ effect? If there had been an interception would it have gone to the defense? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/4 "2009-11-02T00:54:21Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > My question is: does the off-setting penalty negate the ‘free play’ effect? If there had been an interception would it have gone to the defense? No. Offsetting penalties mean the play is null and void. Neither team can benefit from it, they just replay the down. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/5 "2009-11-03T04:29:14Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > No. Offsetting penalties mean the play is null and void. Neither team can benefit from it, they just replay the down. That’s what I figured, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/6 "2009-11-03T15:57:44Z")
What would happen in the (highly unlikely, I know) event that the football kicked for a field goal balanced on the horizontal crossbar? ---
**Author:** ![Kid\_A\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Kid\_A\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kid_A_1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/7 "2009-11-03T16:00:45Z")
I’ve got one…is a pass that bounces off the crossbar still live? What about a field goal? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/8 "2009-11-03T16:21:33Z")
A ball that hits any part of the field goal posts is a dead ball whether on a kick or a pass (a field goal that hits a post or crossbar and goes through is still a field goal though). I’m not sure if this was also the case when the posts used to be positioned at the front of the end zone or not… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/9 "2009-11-03T17:34:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What would happen in the (highly unlikely, I know) event that the football kicked for a field goal balanced on the horizontal crossbar? In order for this to occur some part of the ball would be past the back of the goalposts, so the field goal would be good. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/10 "2009-11-03T17:40:21Z")
I love people guessing at answers, instead of offering up citations to the actual, like, you know, **rules**. If you don’t know for certain, don’t act as if you do. 😉 Of course, the fact that the NFL doesn’t offer up a full rulebook as a webpage or link doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/11 "2009-11-03T17:52:31Z")
The plane of the goal is the invisible field stretching between the goalposts and from the crossbar upwards: [NFL Football Operations | NFL Football Operations](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/field) > [@](#): > > Goal posts must be single-standard type, offset from the end line and painted bright gold. The goal posts must be 18 feet, 6 inches wide and the top face of the crossbar must be 10 feet above the ground. Vertical posts extend at least 30 feet above the crossbar. A ribbon 4 inches by 42 inches long is to be attached to the top of each post. The actual goal is the plane extending indefinitely above the crossbar and between the outer edges of the posts. Hence, a ball sitting on the crossbar has crossed the plane. For the most part, you can’t cite to the NFL rulebook, because as you note they inexplicably don’t make it easily available. There’s a link to a .pdf version of the 2006 Official Rulebook [here](http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf), but I can’t get it to load at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/12 "2009-11-03T17:55:09Z")
Actually, the Footballguys forums have a link to the 2009 version [here](http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=489275), but I think you have to register. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/13 "2009-11-03T18:26:33Z")
I don’t think my original question has been answered. A guy who blows the snapcount and flinches isn’t trying to deceive or induce the defense to jump, he just messed up. Sometimes the defense will just point at the guy who flinched in order to get the call. I don’t think that would work when the QB and tight end stand up and look to the sideline. There is something fundamentally different between the two examples, but I don’t know what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/14 "2009-11-03T18:38:24Z")
So if the center of the ball passes directly OVER the vertical goal post, it counts as a FG because some part of the ball broke the plane of the goal? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/15 "2009-11-03T18:56:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In order for this to occur some part of the ball would be past the back of the goalposts, so the field goal would be good. I don’t think so. I’ve seen a few instances where a ball hit the inner part of one of the uprights, bounced sideways and then hit the other upright, and then bounced back into the filed of play. This means that at least a part of the ball crossed the plane, however these are always ruled “no good”. While the balancing on the crossbar example is very unlikely, I think a more likely scenario (albeit still not probable) would be if the ball, lands exactly at the point where the crossbar meats the upright, and becomes wedged in. I’d guess that this is still no good. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/16 "2009-11-03T20:01:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The plane of the goal is the invisible field stretching between the goalposts and from the crossbar upwards: [NFL Football Operations | NFL Football Operations](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/field) > > Hence, a ball sitting on the crossbar has crossed the plane. > > For the most part, you can’t cite to the NFL rulebook, because as you note they inexplicably don’t make it easily available. There’s a link to a .pdf version of the 2006 Official Rulebook [here](http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf), but I can’t get it to load at the moment. Interesting. In the NCAA, the ball must pass over the crossbar between the uprights. “The crossbar and uprights are treated as a line, not a plane, in determining forward progress of the ball.” In other words, the whole ball must pass through the uprights, not just break the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/17 "2009-11-03T20:02:50Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > So if the center of the ball passes directly OVER the vertical goal post, it counts as a FG because some part of the ball broke the plane of the goal? I’m almost positive that the entire ball must be within the goalposts, but I’m off to verify. I think it’s treated as if the goalposts extend infinitely upward. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/18 "2009-11-03T20:34:56Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I love people guessing at answers, instead of offering up citations to the actual, like, you know, **rules**. > > If you don’t know for certain, don’t act as if you do. 😉 Huh? I do know. What is with the attitude, anyway? [QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] I don’t think my original question has been answered. A guy who blows the snapcount and flinches isn’t trying to deceive or induce the defense to jump, he just messed up. Sometimes the defense will just point at the guy who flinched in order to get the call. I don’t think that would work when the QB and tight end stand up and look to the sideline. There is something fundamentally different between the two examples, but I don’t know what it is. [/QUOTE] The thing that’s fundamentally different is that standing up and looking to the sideline isn’t likely to induce the defense into being fooled about the beginning of the play. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a question of intent, so I shouldn’t have said “designed.” It’s really a question of the practical effect of the movement by the offense. Think about it literally - it’s not a “false” “start” if the quarterback turns and looks at the sideline, right? Unless the quarterback is under center and perfectly still, and it’s 4th and 1, and the quarterback really quickly springs up out of his crouch or something, in which case that is a false start. Anyway, since I have to link to something or somebody’s going to get all condescending and snotty, [here you go:](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers) > [@](#): > > No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. Does that clear it up a little? So in the case of an offensive tackle who jumps off the ball and backs into pass protection before the ball is snapped, that’s a movement that would lead the defense to believe the snap has started. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/19 "2009-11-03T22:09:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The plane of the goal is the invisible field stretching between the goalposts and from the crossbar upwards: [NFL Football Operations | NFL Football Operations](http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/field) > > Hence, a ball sitting on the crossbar has crossed the plane. > > For the most part, you can’t cite to the NFL rulebook, because as you note they inexplicably don’t make it easily available. There’s a link to a .pdf version of the 2006 Official Rulebook [here](http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf), but I can’t get it to load at the moment. From your last link (which loaded for me): > [@Rule 11](#): > > The entire ball must pass through the goal. In case wind or other forces cause it > to return through the goal, it must have struck the ground or some object or > person before returning. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990/20 "2009-11-03T22:32:43Z")
Mmm, Jimmy, wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about the peeps discussing the field goal question. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. ☹ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basic-football-rules-question/515990.md?page=2)