# Basing your level of effort on what other people do **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844 "2019-07-30T00:13:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JcWoman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jcwoman/32/2889_2.png) [@JcWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JcWoman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/42 "2019-07-30T17:17:48Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If you know that the bar is low and that you aren’t going to get paid more even if you do more, there isn’t much incentive to outperform. > > But if you had trust that you would get paid more for higher productivity, most people would gladly take that on. This is 100% dead on, and I think people like the OP don’t quite get it. Tying this back to his question of doing my very best out of a sense of self esteem, I can relay my anecdote of “career self discovery” (apologize for the pretentiousness). I already summarized a lot of my career experience in my previous post. At one point I started volunteering for a local dog rescue group. Because they needed people and never said no, I quickly jumped up into a board position where I was doing bookkeeping, mentoring new adopters, fundraising, organizing events, recruiting and managing volunteers and also of course organizational governance. After a couple years of that I stepped down and then did all that for another group. At that point I realized that I’d stretched myself and learned so much more about my leadership and administrative/organizational abilities than I’d ever learned in a couple decades of my paid career. It was such a confidence booster. So when I was done with that, I launched my own small business which I still run today. THAT is where I give 150% purely out of a sense of self-worth. For me at least, I can’t do my very utmost best unless I have very long “reins”. And that’s something that most paid jobs can’t or won’t give you. They are too risk averse. My incentive to outperform is to find a way to blow my own mind with what I’ve accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/43 "2019-07-30T17:31:52Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’ve had depressing jobs (I did exactly what was expected of me) and exciting jobs (I put extra effort, but enjoyed doing so.) > > If I was loading 16 pallets / hour and everyone else was doing 15, I might approach management **if I had discovered a more efficient way to load**. (I would hope to get some reward for enabling that firm to do better.) > > I had one part-time job where my co-workers told me to slow down, because I was ‘making them look bad’. (I soon found another job.) > [@glee](#): > > I had one part-time job where my co-workers told me to slow down, because I was ‘making them look bad’. (I soon found another job.) It is easy to see the shittiness of that kind of attitude, but I don’t think it is inherently shitty. A few months back there was a Reddit thread posted by someone who was sad because all his coworkers hated him. Comes to find out that he was working 10 hour days at the office when everyone else was clocking out at after eight. He was spending the extra time honing his coding skills and not actually working for the company. But to management, he probably looked like the super committed and dedicated employee. It doesn’t take much for “super” to become the new expectation level that everyone is held to. Too bad if you can’t or don’t want to. As a single, childless person, I try to be careful about this. I could work crazy long hours if I wanted to and impress my bosses in the process. But getting along with my coworkers is also important. I don’t want them to love me, but I don’t want them to hate me either. And I don’t want the work effort I put out when I am young and unburdened to be the standard I am judged against when I am old and more weighed down with responsibilities. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/44 "2019-07-30T17:33:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems to imply that you would only give your best work if it was noticed by the company and/or management. I’m talking about self-worth, where you do a good job to satisfy yourself, even if your fellow employees are not doing a good job. Add me to the many that doesn’t base my self-worth on my job performance - at least, not enough that I feel I need to break my back to be worth something. Even taking it relatively easy I’m one of the best programmers at my (rather small) workplace, if not _the_ best programmer here, and I certainly am satisfying expectations. My bosses are happy with my work and I’m objectively awesome. Even when I’m taking it relatively easy. But I could certainly do more. Work harder. Work longer hours (for no additional money). Push myself. Lose my evenings. Lose touch with my family. Burn out. Get stress headaches. Start hating my job. Start hating my life. These are things I could do. But, well, I really don’t see the appeal. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/45 "2019-07-31T02:46:19Z")
I base my level of effort on what I want to get out of my career. If I don’t like how I’m treated at work, then I’m there to get the skills and experience that will take me to my next job. But generally, no. I don’t buy into this “hustle culture” bullshit of “crushing it” at your stupid corporate job stuffed into an open-plan office. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t drink and don’t smoke and even if I did, it’s unlikely that the owner of the huge, international company I’m talking about would agree to hang out with me. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you want to get ahead, if you want to go far in your career, my advice is to drink and be comfortable in bars. Who you know is waaaaaay more important than what you know, IME and drinking socially is still the most acceptable way to bond with other adults. So if you don’t drink, where did you come up with the notion that the best way to “go far” in your career is to drink and hang out in bars? ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/46 "2019-07-31T03:32:48Z")
If you’re a manager and your employees are ordered to comply, they will on average, and average is what you’ll get, and that’s perfectly fine for a lot of businesses/industries. Unless you’re really trying to get a stellar bonus, maybe crack some skulls. ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/47 "2019-07-31T04:02:40Z")
Or establish metrics to evaluate performance, and systems to improve performance, as well as consequences for underachievement, as well as rewards for overachievement… ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/48 "2019-07-31T04:23:37Z")
> [@Mcmechanic](#): > > Or establish metrics to evaluate performance, and systems to improve performance, as well as consequences for underachievement, as well as rewards for overachievement… The problem with using metrics to evaluate performance is that they very often define ‘underachievement’ is such a way that doing the job thoroughly to the best of your ability is ‘underachievement’ while doing just enough to solve a problem for the moment is what gets the rewards for ‘overachievement’. For example, retail workers are often evaluated on pushing store credit cards onto people. If you really try to do your best for people, you shouldn’t push the cards onto people it might be a bad idea for, but obviously if that’s the metric then you sell, sell, sell. Tech support is often evaluated on their ability to quickly close calls, which means that their best bet for complicated issues is not to solve them but to try to get them out of their name ASAP so they don’t get dinged for it. Escalate it if possible, transfer it to someone, close it and hope someone else gets the call back, and so on all result in better rewards than trying to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/49 "2019-07-31T04:39:11Z")
Yeah, I have to agree with you. The metrics become corrupted over time, like at Enron. And I’ve seen it at the BMV where they were trying to reduce wait time, by denying service for anything minor. I would like to think those situations will eventually resolve themselves in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/50 "2019-07-31T05:46:38Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I had one part-time job where my co-workers told me to slow down, because I was ‘making them look bad’. (I soon found another job.) In my second day at what ended up being one of my favorite customers, my direct manager told me “😃 slow down, we don’t want to make the internals look bad”. We needed their collaboration, as well as that of those people in our team who weren’t as fast as Boss, Wolfman and me; we didn’t really gain anything from those of us who were faster making a show out of it, and Boss knew who were the fast workers; she’d take advantage of this to distribute some tasks to those who were actually available in a way that didn’t make anybody look or feel bad; she would also tell the Wolfman and me to work from home on certain periods where she knew we really didn’t have jackshit to do, with specific instructions to check our mail twice a day and otherwise make sure the Cub was growing up correctly (he was) and the streets of Barcelona were where I’d left them (they were), respectively. Keeping pace with slower people when the team needs to meet certain goals at the same time isn’t a problem so long as I don’t expect to look busy and frazzled while I do so. Being told “take it easy” by someone who means it, I’m OK with. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/51 "2019-08-01T00:52:32Z")
> [@Mcmechanic](#): > > Yeah, I have to agree with you. The metrics become corrupted over time, like at Enron. If by “corrupted” you mean Enron intentionally mislead investors on traditional accounting metrics like revenue, liabilities and equity. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/52 "2019-08-01T00:57:56Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Had a call from my youngest the other day. She is a project manager at a tech firm - doing quite well in terms of assignments, pay, promotions. She said she feels like she is stealing her pay, because she isn’t DOING anything - just making sure other people do their jobs. I asked what kind of hours she is putting in. She said basically 9-4:30, w/ min computer work over weekends around deadlines and such. But she said she is by far the best PM their firm has, and her boss’ clear favorite. > > So - what more is she supposed to do, just because her innate skills/abilities/personality make a job seem easy for her, that others struggle at? Does she compare her work to others she works with and then lower her own personal standards to match them? That’s the question. > [@](#): > > Consistent with my prior comment that I would produce the average +1, I always try to be in the top half - more likely the top quarter - just to avoid being an easy target. So you don’t lower your own effort based on what others are doing. Good, that is what I was asking. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/53 "2019-08-01T01:00:02Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I work with a guy who basically barely meets expectations. His attitude is very much “My son gets my time. I’m not going to cut into parenting time, period–work gets my 40 hours and if I can’t get it done in that, I don’t do it.” And he is a great dad. Is his attitude less ethical than mine? I don’t know. My question to you is, and the OP is, do you change your own personal standards based on what that guy does? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/54 "2019-08-01T01:09:29Z")
The responses everyone is giving are so far from what I though my original question was, that I thought I must have phrased it wrong or something. But I went back and looked and the OP is “Why would a person based their attitude or work ethic on other people’s attitude or work ethic? I don’t get that” So basically, if your coworkers are slacking off, or doing a crappy job, do you start to slack off or do a crappy job? Or do you continue to work at whatever effort you worked at before you noticed them slacking off. For example: Imagine your company required cover sheets on the TPS reports. Everyone knows that cover sheets are required on the TPS reports. But you’ve discovered that nobody else puts cover sheets on their TPS reports. Do you stop putting the cover sheets on your TPS reports, or do you continue to do it because you know that is the requirement? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/55 "2019-08-01T01:10:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So if you don’t drink, where did you come up with the notion that the best way to “go far” in your career is to drink and hang out in bars? From watching other lazier, less-qualified, less-knowledgable, less-experienced people in my industry who do drink somehow succeed and in some cases/ways surpass my own career. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/56 "2019-08-01T01:12:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > From watching other lazier, less-qualified, less-knowledgable, less-experienced people in my industry who do drink somehow succeed and in some cases/ways surpass my own career. Perhaps they succeed because they don’t think that “Doing something to my best of my ability” are the words of a sucker? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/57 "2019-08-01T01:18:38Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > Well, re-read the paragraph about the Tier 1/Tier 2 support. I was doing my best work to satisfy myself and found that I then got handed the work of another team. Not because I was good, but because they were too spineless to solve the problem. I don’t take pride in being taken advantage of, thanks. I just saw this post. One of my earliest memories of something that formed my personality was the realization, in 3rd grade, that I was being taken advantage of _by my teacher_. I was far ahead the other kids in most subjects, but especially in Reading (remember when it was a skill with a capital letter? :)) and Math. My “reward” for this was that I got to help the other kids, especially the ones who were struggling with either subject. Fuck that. I finish my shit early and then I have to do Bobby and Sue and Chris’s shit too? Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/58 "2019-08-01T01:21:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps they succeed because they don’t think that “Doing something to my best of my ability” are the words of a sucker? Are you here to argue and denigrate, or are you here to learn? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/59 "2019-08-01T01:29:34Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you here to argue and denigrate, or are you here to learn? :dubious: Fair point. I withdraw my question. Edited to add: I don’t think asking a question is arguing or denigrating. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/60 "2019-08-01T01:39:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > For example: Imagine your company required cover sheets on the TPS reports. Everyone knows that cover sheets are required on the TPS reports. But you’ve discovered that nobody else puts cover sheets on their TPS reports. Do you stop putting the cover sheets on your TPS reports, or do you continue to do it because you know that is the requirement? Depends. What does the person who \*gets \*the TPS reports do? Do they make no comment on the missing cover sheets, and proceed with their job as normal? If so, then sure I’d stop - because clearly nobody cares about it, and if nobody cares about it it’s not a real requirement. If I ever hear the TPS person bitching “God, I wish someone would put a cover sheet on their report once in a while”, then yes, I’d put the cover sheet on. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844/61 "2019-08-01T01:55:19Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Depends. What does the person who \*gets \*the TPS reports do? Do they make no comment on the missing cover sheets, and proceed with their job as normal? If so, then sure I’d stop - because clearly nobody cares about it, and if nobody cares about it it’s not a real requirement. > > If I ever hear the TPS person bitching “God, I wish someone would put a cover sheet on their report once in a while”, then yes, I’d put the cover sheet on. Would you do that even though you know for a fact that nobody else puts cover sheets on their TPS reports? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basing-your-level-of-effort-on-what-other-people-do/837844.md?page=4)