# Basis for movie/book convention about angels envying humans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2008, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166 "2008-12-01T10:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/1 "2008-12-01T10:55:08Z")
In at least three different movies and one book, I’ve come across the plot device that angels envy humans for the unique position the latter have vis-a-vis God’s grace. The [Angel Gabriel](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi1r8B5INfU) in _Constantine_: > [@](#): > > You’re handed this precious gift, right? Each one of you granted redemption from the Creator - murderers, rapists, molesters - all of you just have to repent, and God takes you into His bosom. In all the worlds and all the universe, no other creature can make such a boast, save man. It’s not fair. [Lucifer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194/quotes) in _The Prophecy_: > [@](#): > > Other angels have made this war because they hate you, you and all humans. God has put you in his grace and pushed them aside. They’re desperate. [Bartleby](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/quotes) in _Dogma_: > [@](#): > > The humans have besmirched everything bestowed on them. They were given Paradise, they threw it away. They were given this planet, they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors, and some of them don’t even believe He exists. And in spite of it all, He’s shown them infinite fucking patience at every turn. What about us? I asked you… once to lay down the sword because I felt sorry for them. What was the result? Our expulsion from Paradise. WHERE WAS HIS INFINITE FUCKING PATIENCE THEN? IT’S NOT RIGHT, IT’S NOT FAIR. I also remember some kind of similar dialogue in Anne Rice’s book _Memnoch the Devil_. I also notice that all four of these sources strike me as rather Catholic-oriented. So where does this movie/book convention come from? Is there some scripture or church tradition that indicates that angels envy humans? Mods feel free to move the thread as appropriate: I had a hard time deciding between GD, GQ and Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/2 "2008-12-01T12:31:26Z")
Probably Milton (so Anglican, not Catholic). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/3 "2008-12-01T13:57:32Z")
Older than Milton, perhaps. In college my drama club once did a cycle of Medieval mystery plays – one was the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve. Satan expounded that his reason for rebelling against God was that God had decided to make humans, not angels, in His image – “And I disdained that angel-kind it should not be! And we were fair and bright! Therefore I thought the form of us take He might!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/4 "2008-12-01T14:00:33Z")
And according to the Q’uran, the angel [Iblis,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis) or Shaitan (Satan), was cast out of Heaven when he refused Allah’s command to bow down before Adam. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/5 "2008-12-01T14:04:10Z")
Wasn’t Zeus often getting the hots for mortals and weren’t a number of the different goddesses jealous of mortal women? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/6 "2008-12-01T16:06:38Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I also notice that all four of these sources strike me as rather Catholic-oriented. I suspect this is because ignorant (Protestant) writers tend to lump popular theology in with the mysteries and rituals religious practice. The irony is that Catholic theology is pretty much the complete antithesis of this angelic nonsense. In Catholicism, our sum total knowledge of angels and demons amounts to this: we believe they exist, that they are the same type of being (and fundamentally different from humans). Demons, for some reason\* are in rebellion against God and, for now, can mess with us. Angels still serve God and bring messages and so forth. Angels are pretty scary to us in their natural form, simply because they are just that rockin’ awesome, but they have taken mortal guise on occaision. That’s about it. \*And we really _don’t_ know why. Fictional sources have all kinds of reasons given, but we have no frickin clue. No one bothered to explain it, and it’s probably pretty damn petty come down to it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/7 "2008-12-01T17:15:57Z")
The angels in _Wings of Desire_ and _City of Angels_ (loosely based upon but very different from _Wings of Desire_) are also envious of humans for their emotional lives and the pleasures of the flesh (not just sex, either). Don’t know the basis for this meme, other than it makes us as humans feel good to know that even a being as powerful, beautiful and close to God as an angel can be envious of us. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/8 "2008-12-01T17:53:13Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I suspect this is because ignorant (Protestant) writers tend to lump popular theology in with the mysteries and rituals religious practice. Really? I thought Anne Rice and Kevin Smith were both Catholics. > [@](#): > > Demons, for some reason\* are in rebellion against God . . . \*And we really don’t know why. Fictional sources have all kinds of reasons given, but we have no frickin clue. No one bothered to explain it, and it’s probably pretty damn petty come down to it. Yay, I get to quote a Bible verse at you! [Isaiah 14:12](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#The_Morning_Star_in_Isaiah_14:12): > [@](#): > > How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Also, [QUOTE=MrDibble] Probably Milton (so Anglican, not Catholic). [/QUOTE] Now that you mention it, I remember C.S. Lewis had Screwtape ranting against humans for much the same reasons as given in the OP, though that presumably reflected the view of the fallen angels only. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/9 "2008-12-01T19:31:21Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Really? I thought Anne Rice and Kevin Smith were both Catholics. Smith is. Rice recently converted, and was not previously a believer (she may have been raised Catholic, I dunno.) But I’m familiar with European works as well, like Wim Wenders’s films. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/10 "2008-12-01T19:48:47Z")
I think envy and jealousy are pretty common religious themes, so I’m not surprised to see them applied to angels. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/11 "2008-12-01T21:38:46Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Smith is. Rice recently converted, and was not previously a believer (she may have been raised Catholic, I dunno.) But I’m familiar with European works as well, like Wim Wenders’s films. Rice was immersed in Catholicism as a child. rejected it as she grew & has now returned. Only her sympathy for gay rights (is her son Christopher gay?) and her social-justice liberalism keeps her from going hard-edged Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/12 "2008-12-01T21:43:54Z")
I Peter 1: 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; _which things the angels desire to look into._ The only Biblical passage I know indicating that humans have something angels lack- the experience of the Gospel. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/13 "2008-12-01T21:50:27Z")
Philip Pullman, in _His Dark Materials_ also depicts angels as envious of humans, in large part due to their having substance, i.e. bodies of flesh and blood and bone. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/14 "2008-12-02T18:42:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Don’t know the basis for this meme, other than it makes us as humans feel good to know that even a being as powerful, beautiful and close to God as an angel can be envious of us. This. What we’re seeing is fiction written by humans to feel better about being human.[In reality, we angels just call you–well, it would translate as “homunculi.” We also tell jokes about you much like you tell jokes about natives of neighboring nations.] :PThere’s a long tradition & strong tendency for human writers expecting an entirely human audience to extol the wonderfulness of humanity. It’s even taught in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/15 "2008-12-03T15:18:08Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s a long tradition & strong tendency for human writers expecting an entirely human audience to extol the wonderfulness of humanity. It’s even taught in schools. Exactly. In science fiction, there’s a common theme of AI computers or powerful aliens envying humans. In fantasy, it’s the elder races like the elves who are jealous of some human quality. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/16 "2008-12-03T16:34:27Z")
'Cause we’re just so _wonderful!_ :: squeezes own cheeks :: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/17 "2008-12-03T16:48:37Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What we’re seeing is fiction written by humans to feel better about being human. Ding ding ding. Humans experience things like aging, pain and death and angels presumably wouldn’t, so from a literary standpoint, angels have to lack something humans have for that morale reason, and to make them more interesting characters. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/18 "2008-12-04T11:53:22Z")
Also there are no layoffs in Heaven. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/19 "2008-12-04T15:41:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Exactly. In science fiction, there’s a common theme of AI computers or powerful aliens envying humans. In fantasy, it’s the elder races like the elves who are jealous of some human quality. The irony is that in (almost by definition) the greatest fantasy work of all time Lord of the Rings, the elves mostly _don’t_ envy humanity. After some eons of seeing their works fade and die, some of them wish they could leave the world through death, but the majority don’t think too much of humans. And the Maiar and Valar would probably laugh at the idea of envying humans. Likewise, the greatest Sci-Fi stories mostly have the advanced superbeings specifically not “envying humanity.” ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/basis-for-movie-book-convention-about-angels-envying-humans/475166/20 "2008-12-04T19:26:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The irony is that in (almost by definition) the greatest fantasy work of all time Lord of the Rings, the elves mostly _don’t_ envy humanity. After some eons of seeing their works fade and die, some of them wish they could leave the world through death, but the majority don’t think too much of humans. And the Maiar and Valar would probably laugh at the idea of envying humans. Likewise, the greatest Sci-Fi stories mostly have the advanced superbeings specifically not “envying humanity.” I do not think is true. Death is called the gift of men. The Silmarillions whole theme is immortality versus mortality (or at least that is the way I perceived it), and the Elves in some ways do seem to envy it.