# Bathing in the middle ages **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327 "2004-12-17T13:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/21 "2004-12-20T23:42:13Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > In London,-- 1966, I knew 7 yr old children who would say “Last night was my bath night, so I missed that TV program”( or whatever). I dont know if they had 2,3 or 4 bath nights each week,but I know that they did not bathe every day.This was 1966!!! Americans were deeply into the space race,the movie 2001 was released, --and English children still scheduled their bath times as special occcasions. Weird!!! Maybe I’m missing something here, but I was not under the impression that it was S.O.P. to require small children to take a full bath or shower daily even now. (As you can guess, I am childless, so maybe I’m missing something here.) Small children do not generally sweat and stink as badly as adults, so assuming good bathroom habits and a frequent swipe with a clean washcloth, I would not assume that letting a kid go for days without a full bath would be a tragedy. Am I missing something here? ---
**Author:** ![northernguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a183cd/32.png) [@northernguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/northernguy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/22 "2004-12-23T00:40:43Z")
Some points to consider when regarding earlier European bathing practices. Until fairly recently Europeans regarded the concept of bathing as dangerous, unpleasant and perhaps even immoral. THey did _not_ try and get around this belief system by some form of sponge bath etc. The whole notion of cleanliness as applied to the body was literally foreign to them. They did _not_ try and alleviate the problem by regularly changing their underwear. Marie Antoinette and her ilk were literally sewn into their underwear which they wore until it became so dirt encrusted as to chafe against their skin. Toilet paper use by Europeans is a very recent phenomenon. I’m not referring to the availability of tissue paper but the practice or even the need for the use of something comparable. Europeans of the middle ages and later were completely baffled by the absence of open sores and generally healthy complexion of Arab women. All the cultures such as Orientals, Natives of North and South America etc. considered the early European explorers to foul smelling savages. The Arabs were especially put off by the personal practices of Europeans. This was exacerbated by the great difficulty even the educated Europeans had working with numbers larger than 10, applying seemingly simple astronomy or even a rudimentary knowledge of Earth. Even the literate class of Europe which was mostly the priests spent most of their time copying written works of previous cultures from distant lands. Their sole contribution to the literary process seemed no more than embellishing these copies with very artistic graphics. Most of the world’s cultures of the times found the contemporary Europeans to be culturally, socially, intellectually and especially, physically repulsive. As would we!! ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/23 "2004-12-23T02:22:29Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something here, but I was not under the impression that it was S.O.P. to require small children to take a full bath or shower daily even now. (As you can guess, I am childless, so maybe I’m missing something here.) Small children do not generally sweat and stink as badly as adults, so assuming good bathroom habits and a frequent swipe with a clean washcloth, I would not assume that letting a kid go for days without a full bath would be a tragedy. Am I missing something here? I don’t have any kids yet, but I don’t know any kid who would be under normal circumstances be allowed to go more than one day without bathing. Kids get even dirtier than adults. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/24 "2004-12-23T02:35:21Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I don’t have any kids yet, but I don’t know any kid who would be under normal circumstances be allowed to go more than one day without bathing. Kids get even dirtier than adults. When I was a kid, I was on a every-other-night bathing schedule. But then again, I wasn’t rolling around in the dirt all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/25 "2004-12-23T03:09:13Z")
**Northernguy** , virtually everything you just posted is either flat wrong, or a gross overgeneralization. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here. ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/26 "2004-12-23T06:11:29Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something here, but I was not under the impression that it was S.O.P. to require small children to take a full bath or shower daily even now.Am I missing something here? I was born in '82 and, like **monstro** , as a kid I bathed about once every two days. I went without one for longer whenever I could get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/27 "2004-12-23T12:18:58Z")
Without getting too much into anecdotage, I certainly didn’t have a bath every day as a kid. Every two days, maybe three at a push. (Born in 1977, English) ---
**Author:** ![grg88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@grg88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grg88)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/28 "2004-12-23T15:55:35Z")
One might surmise that a lot of the legends about “stinky foreigners” get started when foreigners wandered into some new country. In the old days there were darn few Winnebagos, or even hotels with Jacussi’s. So anybody that had been traveling for days was likely to be rather fragrant. Doesnt matter if it’s a Christian Crusader in Egypt, or Arab traders in London. The furriner is likely to have a strong and probably “different” smell than the natives. That doesnt guarantee that he smells that bad when at home. Not to mention that whenever confronted with a different nationality or culture, it’s understandable for the home folks to get defensive and put down the visitors, at least for local consumption. So perhaps we should not take as totally authoritative when the home folks wrote about smelly visiting foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![YPOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e99b99/32.png) [@YPOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YPOD)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/29 "2004-12-31T21:31:49Z")
I always thought that one reason foreigners “stank” was the difference in food. Eat a lot of garlic and leeks, for example, and you will probably give off a different odor than someone who ate parsley and potatos. ---
**Author:** ![Insomniactress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/91b2a8/32.png) [@Insomniactress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Insomniactress)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/30 "2005-01-01T21:42:21Z")
Another anecdote… Also born in England, this time in 1973. Had a bath once a week, generally on Thursday nights, which interfered greatly with watching Top Of The Pops - this was understandably an absolute horror. Other than being cruelly deprived of Bay City Roller-y goodness, the only real negative was that as the youngest of four siblings, I had to bathe in the coldest water. Fine in the summer, not so fine in the midst of winter. We weren’t smelly, or otherwise politically incorrect children…despite not having daily baths, we DID learn quite early in life to wash “your parts” daily. This included “Pits, parts and eaty bits”, as my Mother would say…although I’ve never actually asked for clarification, I’m fairly secure thinking she meant armpits, crotch and mouth. Though never with the same cloth. ---
**Author:** ![cuban\_ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@cuban\_ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuban_ninja)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/31 "2005-01-14T01:39:52Z")
undefined > [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > When you start a thread, it is helpful to other readers if you provide a link to the column. In this case, it’s today’s column, but in a week or so it will have fallen into the abyss of the Archives, so you save readers lots of search time by giving them a link. > > This one: [Is good personal hygiene a recent invention? (Did the days of old really stink?)](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041217.html) > > No biggie, **HennaDancer** , you’ll know for next time. ---
**Author:** ![cuban\_ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@cuban\_ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuban_ninja)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/32 "2005-01-14T01:45:01Z")
> [@cuban ninja](#): > > undefined WHEN IT COMES TO BATHING, OR LACK OF SAME DURING THE MIDDLE AGES. WAS IT THAT ABSOLUTE??? WHAT I’M ASKING IS IF NOT BATHING APPLIED ONLY TO TAKING A FULL BATH, OR DID EUROPEANS DOUSED OF WITH A WET TOWEL DAILY OR SO??? I CAN’T UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE CAN GO THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT BATHING. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/33 "2005-01-14T02:39:10Z")
There is no need to shout, **Cuba Ninja**. As you have seen from the previous posts, infrequent bathing will not kill a person. Bathing in one form or another has been present in nearly every culture from the beginning of time. Medieval and Victorian Europe probably stands as the most extreme example of infrequent bathing, but that doesn’t mean that every singel person during these periods of time went their entire lives, from birth 'til death, without ever washing their bodies. Sometimes you just gotta, never mind what religious texts say. For example, no one is going to let mom and baby crust over in birth fluids. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/34 "2005-01-24T00:51:48Z")
From Cecil’s report: > [@](#): > > It’s estimated that in 1819 the 700,000 inhabitants of Paris collectively purchased only 600,000 baths. That number is actually pretty good. I know very few families with one bath per person. Most of my living situations have had one bath/shower for 4+ people. Maybe I’m missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Foghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/76d3ee/32.png) [@Foghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foghead)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/35 "2005-01-24T15:09:01Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > From Cecil’s report: > > That number is actually pretty good. I know very few families with one bath per person. Most of my living situations have had one bath/shower for 4+ people. Maybe I’m missing something? I think we’re talking about _baths_ here, not bath_tubs_. Ewww. ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/36 "2005-01-24T22:02:00Z")
> [@Foghead](#): > > I think we’re talking about _baths_ here, not bath_tubs_. > > Ewww. Aaaaah And yes, Ewww. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/37 "2005-02-02T19:06:41Z")
Reading **Insomniactress** ’s (welcome, by the way) anecdote, and recalling a similar one from Bill Wyman’s memoirs, who also experienced the situation of all siblings being bathed in the same “draft” of bathwater, reminds me of a related question. Most of the talk here has been about _baths_ specifically. But what about showers? Did they catch on later than bathtubs? Have they not fully caught on even now? In Germany, from my experience, the trend seemed to be toward showers and away from baths. Our dorm had showers on each floor, but only two bathtubs, in two basement bathing rooms. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/38 "2006-01-02T15:44:43Z")
I think many in this old thread have underestimated medieval bathing. It was quite common in the cities - and in the countryside, who knows? Later, during the Renaissance, many people began to believe that bathing was dangerous; this belief apparently began due to the Black Death. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/39 "2006-01-02T16:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Toilet paper use by Europeans is a very recent phenomenon. I’m not referring to the availability of tissue paper but the practice or even the need for the use of something comparable. You might think so, based on passages in James Clavell’s **Tai Pan** and other random books I’ve found. But Rabelais devotes an entire chapter of his 17th cebntury **Gargantua and Pantagruel** to various things used as toilet paper. The ancient Romans used sponges (plenty of evidence in their writings). The idea that Europeans saw no need to wipe seems not to be supported very well. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327/40 "2006-01-07T15:12:23Z")
_Posted by Northernguy (on 12/22/2004):_ > [@](#): > > Some points to consider when regarding earlier European bathing practices. > > Until fairly recently Europeans regarded the concept of bathing as dangerous, unpleasant and perhaps even immoral. THey did _not_ try and get around this belief system by some form of sponge bath etc. The whole notion of cleanliness as applied to the body was literally foreign to them. > > They did _not_ try and alleviate the problem by regularly changing their underwear. Marie Antoinette and her ilk were literally sewn into their underwear which they wore until it became so dirt encrusted as to chafe against their skin. > > Toilet paper use by Europeans is a very recent phenomenon. I’m not referring to the availability of tissue paper but the practice or even the need for the use of something comparable. > > Europeans of the middle ages and later were completely baffled by the absence of open sores and generally healthy complexion of Arab women. All the cultures such as Orientals, Natives of North and South America etc. considered the early European explorers to foul smelling savages. > > The Arabs were especially put off by the personal practices of Europeans. This was exacerbated by the great difficulty even the educated Europeans had working with numbers larger than 10, applying seemingly simple astronomy or even a rudimentary knowledge of Earth. Even the literate class of Europe which was mostly the priests spent most of their time copying written works of previous cultures from distant lands. Their sole contribution to the literary process seemed no more than embellishing these copies with very artistic graphics. > > Most of the world’s cultures of the times found the contemporary Europeans to be culturally, socially, intellectually and especially, physically repulsive. > > As would we!! I was just about to point out that virtually all of Northernguy’s post is wrong, but looking through the thread, I find that I already did so, more than a year ago. And since this was apparently Northernguy’s one and only post on the SDMB, it’s not likely he’d derive any benefit from any explanation presented here now. Probably a teenager; I remember thinking I knew an awful lot of stuff back then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/280327.md?page=3)