# Batman Begins plot discussion \[OPEN SPOILERS!\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414 "2005-06-15T18:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/61 "2005-06-17T17:57:39Z")
> [@BayleDomon](#): > > As well as _Fifth Element_. He never appears the same way twice, I swear. Don’t forget _Hannibal_, while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/62 "2005-06-17T17:58:56Z")
Whoops! Didn’t spot Ethilrist, there. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/63 "2005-06-17T18:23:46Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > One amusing glitch in Bruce Wayne’s sense of justice is that he refuses to execute a man, but then torches the place, which in all likelyhood caused the guy a much more painful death either from burns or from running out into the wintry countryside and freezing to death. I don’t recall any evidence the murderer character survived. > > Also, Bruce casually trashes six guys in the prison, _before_ he gets all Karate Kid-i-fied, yet there wasn’t any real indication that during his travels “to study the criminal mind” that he picked up any brawling skills. He was, of course, angry all the time, which I guess helps a little. > > As for Liam Neeson’s character, I don’t quite buy into any mystical notions of immortality. I just get the impression that _he_ was Ra’s al-Ghul and the real head of the League while Ken Watanabe was playing a decoy leader. Possibly the truth would have been revealed to Bruce had he done the slice-o-matic deed. The League’s motivation is a bit strained, though. What trashed London wasn’t some criminal conspiracy but (if Neeson was referring to the events of 1666) a major fire, which did in fact leave the city, after extensive rebuilding, much stronger than before. Driving the population of Gotham insane, though… hu’uh? > > Anyhoo, trivial nitpicks aside, it was an immensely enjoyable film and Bale is about ten times better at the role than Keaton, Kilmer and Clooney combined. Tragically, Holmes is about ten times worse than any of Bassinger, Pfeiffer, Kidman and… well, Thurmond was pretty bad, too. > > So, keep Robin out (possibly have an older sidekick go straight to being Nightwing), let’s see Batman do some actual detective work (that _is_ kinda what Bob Kane and Bill Finger had in mind), some fight scenes that aren’t all blurred and in extreme close-up, and let’s aim for a _World’s Finest_ movie in 2012 (after each character has had two new solo films) in which Batman thinks Superman is a dork and Superman thinks Batman is a psycho, but there’s mutual respect. I’d love to see a scene like: > > Batman reacts to a sudden movement in the shadows, flings a batarang at it. Superman casually catches it, examines it. > Superman: These things are kind of cool. So, what are you up to? > Batman: What the hell are you doing in my city? > Superman: Hey, relax. I heard there was some trouble. [looks around] This place is really gritty, isn’t it? > Batman: Compared to Metropolis? The only reason they call it the city of the future is that they have to keep rebuilding it after one of your stupid battles. > Superman: Now hang on a moment… > Batman: [throws a batline, swings away] > Superman: [sighs] This city is so _rude_. Ras when we see him at the party sure does now look like his comic depiction. ---
**Author:** ![RealityReject](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@RealityReject](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityReject)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/64 "2005-06-17T18:30:19Z")
Loved the movie, hated the action scenes. I have no idea what happened during any fight other than batman won somehow and they gave me a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/65 "2005-06-17T20:21:53Z")
I thought Holmes was fine. The passion was a little muted, but I liked that the love interest was basically a frustrated friendship rather than a Bond-fuck at the end. The dialouge of the movie was well done: it developed some key themes in the mythos without being preachy or too comic-book. I agree on the fighting scenes, at least the rumble scenes. Batman is SUPPOSED to be mysterious and scary, and that definately worked in the warehouse attack. But for extended fight scenes, why have closeups that prevent you from seeing anything more than a blur for most of it? You don’t have to choreograph it in painfully artificial detail like the Matrix or a Jackie Chan flick, but at least have some cinematic sense of the fight developing, blocks, punches, and all. The ninja scenes with swords were fairly good at this, but the fight in the prison and the fights at the end were just all mushy blurs for little sense of the fight. I got the sense that some fairly signficant scenes were cut from this film. Some of the weapons we see developed are never used (like the “Fosse” fingers!) and the section dealing with Batman’s first appearance and war on crime felt very foreshortened (like getting dirt on the judge or delving into how to build a case and track down information). I’m betting that there are one or two action scenes that were left out. I second the idea that the next film should develop Batman’s detective persona. This film was all about establishing the central role of fear in who he is and what he does. The next flick needs some noir and mystery elements. I was sort of disappointed that in this one, there was no room for Ra’s now classic moniker for Batman “Detective.” The should model the next one after some of the classic tales like the Long Halloween and the Calendar murders or other classic noir mysteries. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/66 "2005-06-17T20:26:29Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Some of the weapons we see developed are never used (like the “Fosse” fingers!) You’ll have to remind me of this. Was that the glove with the designs in it? I got the impression that was used to activate the memory cloth, which in turn became Batman’s cape that actually lets him glide. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/67 "2005-06-17T20:33:00Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > But for extended fight scenes, why have closeups that prevent you from seeing anything more than a blur for most of it? Yeah, the worst (or best) example of this was in the train when he was fighting Liam Neeson. I couldn’t see anything, just flashes of what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/68 "2005-06-17T20:46:08Z")
I remember seeing the “fingers” that **Apos** is talking about. In hindsight, I think it was part of the development of the cape/glider – a skeletal lining that would move with the cape when it was relaxed, and then swing out to form the “batwings” when activated. (Compare a [bat skeleton](http://www.howe.k12.ok.us/~jimaskew/bio/batskel.jpg)) Without the skin of the cape, it looks like long fingers (mostly because that’s what they are :D) so it kind of seemed like a “Bat-reacher” or something. At least that’s what I assumed it was on the bench. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/69 "2005-06-17T20:52:26Z")
I’ll check with my sensei tomorrow, but it didn’t look to me like the training sequence on the lake was actually filmed on ice. I’ve done kendo on ice, and there’s either more sliding and falling, or a _lot_ less moving around. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/70 "2005-06-17T21:05:42Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I remember seeing the “fingers” that **Apos** is talking about. > > In hindsight, I think it was part of the development of the cape/glider – a skeletal lining that would move with the cape when it was relaxed, and then swing out to form the “batwings” when activated. > > (Compare a [bat skeleton](http://www.howe.k12.ok.us/~jimaskew/bio/batskel.jpg)) > > Without the skin of the cape, it looks like long fingers (mostly because that’s what they are :D) so it kind of seemed like a “Bat-reacher” or something. At least that’s what I assumed it was on the bench. I remember those now. I did wonder about them. You’re right, they were probably used as the frame for the cape. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/71 "2005-06-17T21:05:47Z")
**Apos:** I agree, Holmes was fine. Not necessarily great, but not bad. Her character was handled well and defied expectations of what audiences expect from a superhero’s romantic life. We don’t expect a woman to reject him when she discovers who he is. The dialogue was such a welcome change from the craptastical nature of that in the past few Bat-films. (Remember Bat-Kilmer telling Nicole Kidman that his appeal came from the fact that “Chicks dig the car.”? Or Mr. Freeze’s interminable ice puns in _Batman and Robin_?) The “Fosse fingers” were indeed the bits that went into the flight-enabling cape. And yes, there were a few scenes in the script (widely available on the 'net) where Batman spends time tracking down dirt on that judge and procuring the “leverage” photographs seen later. In fact, there was an incident where pre-world travel Bruce goes to threaten the judge and gets beaten up by his limo driver. Later, when Batman has appeared in Gotham, he repeats the incident but this time he beats down the limo driver and successfully intimidates the dirty judge. The limo driver is actually listed in the credits ([Tamer Hassan](http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1268748/)) due to union rules, I think. I figure they will develop the “detective” angle more in further films. It’s interesting to see Batman develop and you know, _Begin_. He screws up some things, takes a few wrong steps, but he’s getting it figured out. I like that; it makes him even more of a human being the audience can relate to. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/72 "2005-06-17T21:38:36Z")
The fosse fingers definately looked like a glove of some sort separate from the mechanism of the cape. I did note that the film had some very very minor resemblance to Frank Miller’s Year One in the scene where Batman is surrounded by the police and escapes via calling his bats. The fact that Batman actually has to physically leave the building like a real man is one of the things I liked about the treatment of this stuff. Likewise, Holmes doesn’t just magically wake up in her bed: someone has to actually physically take her there. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/73 "2005-06-17T21:46:33Z")
I thought the “Fosse Fingers” (I LOVE the name) were developed because he couldn’t find the remote control! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/74 "2005-06-17T21:51:36Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > The fosse fingers definately looked like a glove of some sort separate from the mechanism of the cape. **cbawlmer** mentioned the script was floating around, so I took a look: > [@](#): > > INT. BAT CAVE – DAY > Wayne takes the hi-tech harness for the grapple and CUTS OFF the shoulder straps, leaving a BELT WITH SLIDING ATTACHMENTS. > > INT. SAME – LATER > Wayne lifts a GLOVED hand, metal contacts on the fingertips. With his other hand, he picks up a FABRIC GLOVE, RIBBONS dangling from each finger. He thrusts the gloved hand into the fabric glove- the ribbons SHOOT OUT- RIGID FINGER EXTENSIONS like the SKELETON of a BAT’S WING. Wayne FANS the PROJECTIONS, testing. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/75 "2005-06-17T22:32:11Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Likewise, Holmes doesn’t just magically wake up in her bed: someone has to actually physically take her there. And I loved the look on Alfred’s face when he tells him ---
**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/76 "2005-06-17T23:11:20Z")
Holmes sucked. Just _once_ I would like to see a movie where the actors didn’t suck face. Just _once_. And she’s a terrible actor, and too young-looking for the part, as others have pointed out. I found her a severe distraction. Other than that, loved the movie! Was seriously creeped out by the Scarecrow. I’d never heard of that villain before, so he was a complete surprise to me. The first scene, when he sprays the chemical in the mob boss’s face and puts on the mask, scared me. I loved it, I wasn’t expecting it at all. Now I want to go play Sanitarium again, because that’s what it reminded me of. Creepy and wrong. Having Batman be a ninja made me giggle. Ninjas are just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/77 "2005-06-17T23:17:12Z")
> [@Elysian](#): > > Holmes sucked. Just _once_ I would like to see a movie where the actors didn’t suck face. Just _once_. And she’s a terrible actor, and too young-looking for the part, as others have pointed out. I found her a severe distraction. > Having Batman be a ninja made me giggle. Ninjas are just silly. Ninjas aren’t silly at all! I think you’ve been looking at the wrong ninjas. And Holmes really wasn’t that bad, I would have liked one kiss with the mas on, actually. And I am as anti movie-romance as they come. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/78 "2005-06-17T23:27:39Z")
That Batman trains in all forms of martial arts is part of the mythos. Batman training with ninjas isn’t silly at all. Some of Batman’s best friends are ninjas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/79 "2005-06-17T23:59:01Z")
Some of my best friends are ninjas, too, and they are too completely silly! 😛 okay maybe i made that up, but ninjas are still silly ---
**Author:** ![RealityReject](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@RealityReject](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityReject)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414/80 "2005-06-18T00:05:33Z")
> [@Elysian](#): > > Holmes sucked. Just _once_ I would like to see a movie where the actors didn’t suck face. Just _once_. And she’s a terrible actor, and too young-looking for the part, as others have pointed out. I found her a severe distraction. > > Other than that, loved the movie! Was seriously creeped out by the Scarecrow. I’d never heard of that villain before, so he was a complete surprise to me. The first scene, when he sprays the chemical in the mob boss’s face and puts on the mask, scared me. I loved it, I wasn’t expecting it at all. Now I want to go play Sanitarium again, because that’s what it reminded me of. Creepy and wrong. > > Having Batman be a ninja made me giggle. Ninjas are just silly. I was creeped out by the scarecrow also and didn’t realize he was a real batman villian until i recalled his legion of doom days in the superfriends. He sure has come far since [those days](http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/scarecrow.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-begins-plot-discussion-open-spoilers/308414.md?page=5)