# Batman v Superman....wtf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 21, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765 "2016-03-21T13:59:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/21 "2016-03-21T16:04:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think it’s significant that the title is Batman “v.” Superman, as opposed to Batman “vs.” Superman. In the movie, they are going to wind up in litigation. So John Grisham wrote the screenplay? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/22 "2016-03-21T17:31:15Z")
> [@kittenblue](#): > > Help an old lady out. The last Batman movie I saw had Michael Keaton, and Superman was Christopher Reeve. I don’t keep up with Marvel and DC culture. In my universe, Batman and Superman are friends and allies, fighting together for truth, justice and good over evil. So help me explain to my poor confused 4-year-old grandson who saw his first commercial for the movie the other day, why are Suoerman and Batman fighting each other? Help a granny out, Dopers! For you: An exceedingly common trope in superhero comics is having two heroes meet for the first time, and mistake each other for supervillains. Often, there’s an actual supervillain in the background, misleading one or both of them. There’s a number of reasons for it. Narrativly, in a genre where the hero always wins, pitting two heroes against each other injects some uncertainty of outcome. It also plays into common fan arguments about whose favorite hero can beat whose favorite hero. In this specific instance, [the scenes of Superman and Batman fighting](http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/04-DKR-Superman-vs-Batman-600x464.jpg) each other are pulled from the comic, _The Dark Knight Returns_, which was released a couple years before Michael Keaton put on the tights for his first Batman movie. In that comic, which was part of a wave of critically acclaimed “darker” superhero comics, an aging Batman faces off against a Superman who’s become a tools of the military industrial complex, after their diverging views on the duties of a super hero drove a wedge between their friendship. _The Dark Knight Returns_, along with similar titles like _Watchmen_, were well written, sophisticated, multilayered examinations of the idea of the super hero, the power fantasies such characters represent, and the tension between the desire for a strongman figure to right wrongs and how that fits (or does not fit) into a society operating under the rule of law. They were hugely successful, and - predictably enough - kicked off a generation of comic books featuring super “heroes” who were little more than ultra-violent jerks, entirely missing the point of the comics they were trying to emulate. The director of the new film, Zach Snyder, is pretty much the human personification of this - he’s known for taking _The Watchmen_ and turning it into an almost entirely soul-less slugfest while (and this is the impressive part) maintaining an almost tedious fidelity to the original story. It’s a perfect example of getting all the notes right, and still missing the song. His new movie looks to be more of the same. For your grandson: Lex Luthor tricks them into fighting each other. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/23 "2016-03-21T17:57:10Z")
I think some of you are misremembering Dark Knight Returns a bit. Batman didn’t go after Superman at all - he was perfectly happy to let Superman keep doing covert missions for the U.S. government, as long as Superman let him keep fracturing femurs in Gotham. Superman went after Batman because President Reagan ordered him to. Batman was basically left with a choice between fighting or surrendering. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/24 "2016-03-21T18:21:59Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Just tell your young grandson that in this movie Batman hasn’t met Superman and thinks he’s scary because but by the end of the movie he’ll learn he’s not and they’ll become friends. (I assume) Of course they will. The subtitle of the movie is Dawn of Justice, and it’s meant to lead into a Justice League movie. Even the trailer has them bantering and working together (along with Wonder Woman), so unless it’s one of those uber-spoilery trailers (I really hope it isn’t) the conflict isn’t even too long-lived. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/25 "2016-03-21T18:29:26Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Yeah, it began in the comic books with the two having differing philosophies. Superman thinks of Batman as a vigilante and Baman calls Superman the Big Blue Boy Scout. Although they’ve reached a detente. Superman has even given a Batman a chunk of Kryptonite in case Superman goes rogue and becomes a danger to the world. Didn’t Batman beat Superman by blocking out the Sun? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/26 "2016-03-21T18:37:17Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I think some of you are misremembering Dark Knight Returns a bit. Batman didn’t go after Superman at all - he was perfectly happy to let Superman keep doing covert missions for the U.S. government, as long as Superman let him keep fracturing femurs in Gotham. Superman went after Batman because President Reagan ordered him to. Batman was basically left with a choice between fighting or surrendering. It strikes me as being even more tempest-in-a-teapot than that. Reagan says it’s okay to have a crazy bronco – but “if that bronco up and kicks the fence out and gets the other horses crazy … well, it’s bad for business”. He then specifies, though, that “I’m not asking you to drag him kicking and screaming into the stable. Just settle him down”. Clark meets with Bruce, explaining that this wouldn’t have been necessary “if you’d learned to slow down … find your niche…” (He later thinks to himself, _“We must not remind them that giants walk the earth.” “I get to save lives – and the media stays quiet. But now the storm is growing again – they’ll hunt us down again – because of you.”_) Oliver meets with Bruce, explaining that “You’ve always had it wrong, Bruce … giving them such a big target. Sure, you play it mysterious – but it’s a loud kind of mysterious, man.” (He adds that _“they’ve been covering for me … but you, Bruce – man, they have to kill you.”_) Bruce later thinks to himself that “maybe Oliver was right … all along”. The book then ends as he thinks to himself, “Clark proved Oliver right. He’ll leave me alone, now. In return, I’ll stay quiet.” That’s all Superman – and the President – wanted in the first place! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/27 "2016-03-21T18:43:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > DC has decided that the way to go is to load on the “darkness,” and Zach Snyder (the director) hasn’t the slightest clue as to what Superman is all about. And it’s a very old and tired Marvel trope that two heroes fight each other (dating back to the 40s with Sub-Mariner vs. the Human Torch). > > The explanation will be the same every other time two heroes fight each other – they were misinformed\*. It will always be some sort of misunderstanding, usually precipitated by the villain. At the end, the heroes will realized they’re being manipulated and join forces to go after the villain. > > \ > > \*Or one of them is being mind controlled. Yep. Snyder is the worst possible director for a Superman film. Man of Steel was a travesty. Supes just \* doesn’t\* kill 10’s of thousands of innocent bystanders just to have a fist fight. [http://www.avclub.com/article/science-estimates-that-the-damage-done-by-emman-of-99165](http://www.avclub.com/article/science-estimates-that-the-damage-done-by-emman-of-99165) \*Watson estimates that some 129,000 people would have died so that Henry Cavill and Michael Shannon could finally punch each other, with another 250,000 going missing in the rubble, and nearly a million beyond that left injured. (The extent to which their injuries would prevent them from expressing gratitude to Superman for coming to their planet, so he could save it from threats he himself provoked, was unfortunately not included in the report.) The overall impact, Watson says, “seemed to be similar to an air burst from a 20kt nuclear explosion in terms of shock effects, but without the radiation or thermal effects.” (But with the heartwarming effects of seeing Superman and Lois hug.) All told, he puts the cost of the physical damage for the film’s third act at $700 billion, with a total economic impact of around $2 trillion. \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/28 "2016-03-21T18:46:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The director of the new film, Zach Snyder, is pretty much the human personification of this - he’s known for taking _The Watchmen_ and turning it into an almost entirely soul-less slugfest while (and this is the impressive part) maintaining an almost tedious fidelity to the original story. It’s a perfect example of getting all the notes right, and still missing the song. His new movie looks to be more of the same. > > For your grandson: Lex Luthor tricks them into fighting each other. Great post! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/29 "2016-03-21T18:49:19Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > Didn’t Batman beat Superman by blocking out the Sun? I thought that was C. Montgomery Burns. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/30 "2016-03-21T18:55:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It strikes me as being even more tempest-in-a-teapot than that. > > Reagan says it’s okay to have a crazy bronco – but “if that bronco up and kicks the fence out and gets the other horses crazy … well, it’s bad for business”. He then specifies, though, that “I’m not asking you to drag him kicking and screaming into the stable. Just settle him down”. > > Clark meets with Bruce, explaining that this wouldn’t have been necessary “if you’d learned to slow down … find your niche…” (He later thinks to himself, _“We must not remind them that giants walk the earth.” “I get to save lives – and the media stays quiet. But now the storm is growing again – they’ll hunt us down again – because of you.”_) > > Oliver meets with Bruce, explaining that “You’ve always had it wrong, Bruce … giving them such a big target. Sure, you play it mysterious – but it’s a loud kind of mysterious, man.” (He adds that _“they’ve been covering for me … but you, Bruce – man, they have to kill you.”_) Bruce later thinks to himself that “maybe Oliver was right … all along”. The book then ends as he thinks to himself, “Clark proved Oliver right. He’ll leave me alone, now. In return, I’ll stay quiet.” > > That’s all Superman – and the President – wanted in the first place! It should be noted that the Oliver mentioned here is an elderly Oliver Queen (aka Green Arrow) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/31 "2016-03-21T19:08:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep. Snyder is the worst possible director for a Superman film. Man of Steel was a travesty. Supes just \* doesn’t\* kill 10’s of thousands of innocent bystanders just to have a fist fight. > > [http://www.avclub.com/article/science-estimates-that-the-damage-done-by-emman-of-99165](http://www.avclub.com/article/science-estimates-that-the-damage-done-by-emman-of-99165) > > \*Watson estimates that some 129,000 people would have died so that Henry Cavill and Michael Shannon could finally punch each other, with another 250,000 going missing in the rubble, and nearly a million beyond that left injured. (The extent to which their injuries would prevent them from expressing gratitude to Superman for coming to their planet, so he could save it from threats he himself provoked, was unfortunately not included in the report.) > > The overall impact, Watson says, “seemed to be similar to an air burst from a 20kt nuclear explosion in terms of shock effects, but without the radiation or thermal effects.” (But with the heartwarming effects of seeing Superman and Lois hug.) All told, he puts the cost of the physical damage for the film’s third act at $700 billion, with a total economic impact of around $2 trillion. > \* And I think the exact opposite. DC and the previous movies whitewash what kind of damage a couple of Kyptonians would do, especially when one of them doesn’t care about the damage he is doing. You could pretend that maybe a Coke sign and a bus will be all that gets damaged. I happen to like the more realistic feel. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/32 "2016-03-21T19:15:29Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > It should be noted that the Oliver mentioned here is an elderly Oliver Queen (aka Green Arrow) And its insinuated that Supes pulled his arm off. DC echoed that later by having Olivers arm strapped to a bomb and Supes at a loss what to do…I think Oliver chose to blow up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/33 "2016-03-21T19:20:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And I think the exact opposite. DC and the previous movies whitewash what kind of damage a couple of Kyptonians would do, especially when one of them doesn’t care about the damage he is doing. You could pretend that maybe a Coke sign and a bus will be all that gets damaged. I happen to like the more realistic feel. Except Superman _should_ care- and in all movies but one- _does_ care. Just take the fight elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/34 "2016-03-21T19:29:43Z")
> [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > I find it hard to be interested in any Superman movie because an indestructible hero is boring. Making an indestrucible hero interesting is simple, if not necessarily easy: revel in the awesomeness of what you are showing us. Case in point: [my favourite scene from Superman Returns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2gQo-0VW5c). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/35 "2016-03-21T19:33:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except Superman _should_ care- and in all movies but one- _does_ care. > > Just take the fight elsewhere. I have no desire to watch Man of Steel again, but as I recall, Supes didn’t have a choice - Zod put one of the Krypton converter gadgets over Metropolis, and that’s what caused most of the damage. Or am I misremembering? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/36 "2016-03-21T19:46:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Just take the fight elsewhere. He tried to. But somehow, an untrained newbie was outmaneuvered by a trained, experienced soldier. It’s strange, and inexplicable, I know, to think that training and experience could trump sheer gumption, but, sometimes you have to suspend disbelief. (Unlike in the beloved Superman: Doomsday, where Superman actively brought the SuperClone back to Metropolis and used the city as a weapon.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/37 "2016-03-21T20:11:51Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I have no desire to watch Man of Steel again, but as I recall, Supes didn’t have a choice - Zod put one of the Krypton converter gadgets over Metropolis, and that’s what caused most of the damage. Or am I misremembering? You remember correctly. Superman was fighting to stop the giant machine. If he’d “taken the fight elsewhere,” he’d have lost, because he wouldn’t be where the machine was any more. I don’t really see what happened to Metroplis (at least up to the neck snap) as a flaw in the movie. Superman tried to save as many people as he could. The threat he was facing was too large for him to save everyone, though. That’s fine for a Superman story, and is a good way of presenting a challenge to a character so fundamentally unstoppable. No, the stupidest thing about that movie was that Zod, a militaristic dictator who values martial prowess above all else, finds himself on a planet whose environment gives him fantastic strength, flight, and the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes, and his first instinct is, “Let’s catastrophically terraform this place so it stops giving us super powers.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/38 "2016-03-21T20:27:28Z")
I thought he wanted to recreate the Kryptonians encoded in Kal’s DNA, and had to kryptoform the planet to do it. Having superpowers over a bunch of puny earthlings wasn’t of interest to him. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/39 "2016-03-21T20:35:56Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I thought he wanted to recreate the Kryptonians encoded in Kal’s DNA, and had to kryptoform the planet to do it. Having superpowers over a bunch of puny earthlings wasn’t of interest to him. Yeah, Zod wanted Krypton. Not to rule over insects. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765/40 "2016-03-21T20:47:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You remember correctly. Superman was fighting to stop the giant machine. If he’d “taken the fight elsewhere,” he’d have lost, because he wouldn’t be where the machine was any more. Yes, but he couldnt stop the machine, until he stopped Zod. So- _that_ was the fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/batman-v-superman-wtf/749765.md?page=3)