As usual, the link ground my computer to a screeching halt. Had to unplug it, and remove the battery.
What were the races of the individuals involved?
New footage is out. You can still not see what his right hand is doing but it he is obviously actively resisting. After the shots you can see the gun being removed from his pocket just like the store owner reported.
BOTH of the cops’ body cameras “fell off”. The police confiscated the shop’s video without a warrant and it has disappeared. The police car dashboard camera video has disappeared. How convenient.
Yes he had a valid reason. He pulls the gun out after his partner yells “He has a gun!”
My first reaction is that it seems very justified, pending further facts emerging.
If the guy was reported to have been brandishing a gun before the cops got there, it makes sense for them to assume that he still had one on his person, as turned out to the be the case.
And if he was struggling with them and refusing to submit, then it’s eminently reasonable for them to assume that this guy with a gun in his pocket might at some point in the struggle whip it out and shoot them.
It seems crazy to me to make a standard that cops cannot shoot armed people who refuse to submit until they actually whip their guns out. By then it could be too late. My feeling is if you want to walk around with a gun, then make sure you’re not seen as threatening by the cops (or anyone else, frankly).
Body cameras are pretty useless in situations like this. Too close. Too narrow a point of view. Like the worst shaky cam movie you will ever see.
I should have also said that I would like a cite for all of that. The reputable cites I have seen say that the body cams came loose and were dangling which is very likely when there is a physical struggle. Footage of that would clearly show if that were true. I saw where the chief said that the car had dashboard cameras but nothing saying it disappeared. I have no idea what you mean by confiscating without a warrant. Of course you can seize evidence without a warrant or else it would be destroyed. Especially electronic evidence that can be erased. Seize then get a warrant or consent to view the recordings. Nothing illegal about that.
ETA it’s possible that the store footage might show something different but doubtful. They are too close to that car and it’s probably between them and the cameras.
Loach and MikeF: do you think these officers appropriately used distance and cover and the techniques of de-escalation to avoid this kind of result to the extent reasonably possible? If you don’t have enough information to say, might that information be contained on the body camera footage?
New footage. Another cell phone.
The store’s footage still hasn’t been released. That should show what lead up to this.
You mean like run away from the guy with the gun? In an area that apparently had many bystanders? No you don’t get distance you take control of the suspect and the situation so the bystanders are not caught in a gun battle or you give him the opportunity to take a hostage. Then we would be hearing about how the coward cops ran away and didn’t protect the public.
They were sent on a call of a man in a red shirt threatening someone with a gun. From what we have seen so far there was some contact which lead to them ordering him to comply. A taser was deployed twice. It is not effective as it often is not. They then take him to the ground and attempt to subdue him. Then one officer notices a gun which is proven to be true. At the time you can see there is still a struggle and his right side of his body is not secured. The only thing we can’t see is how close his right hand got to his body. They do not have to wait until he actually pulls the gun on them to shoot.
Interesting response.
Yeah you too.
I understand the body cams got dislodged during the struggle. Wouldn’t they still provide useful audio?
I’m having trouble understanding why the decision was made to jump the guy. Why he didn’t comply with police instructions.
Pointless to speculate now. Hopefully more video and audio will make it clearer.
I imagine they would provide useful audio, if they didn’t fall under something. No idea why they tackled him, but I doubt they started with that move at the outset of the encounter. As to why Starling didn’t comply, my guess is that his ass didn’t want to go back to jail.
He was a felon in possession of a firearm, which is related to the offense that sent him to prison the last time for five years, and that he was in a halfway house transitioning from. He may have felt that the judge would really jam him up if he caught another illegal firearms possession case, never mind the brandishing charge. All that equals to not wanting to let Officer Friendly search him and find the gun.
No idea why this is such a cause celebre.
Been a cop in a large east coast city for over 10 years…
I’m not sure what you want the cops to do in this situation? You are struggling with a suspect, who is armed, your partner says “he’s going for the gun,” I kind of think you are out of options at that point. It’s not like they could take cover, if he gets to that gun, you’re getting shot. It’s reasonable for a police officer to be in fear for his life in this situation. Thankfully, whenever I stopped guys carrying a gun they complied. Just my 2 cents
And when they brandished their weapons?
I’m not a great believer in the death penalty. For street offenses, even less so.
For the cops on the board
Why was Stirling supine? Why were they not rolling him into a prone position?
I understand why the officer drew his weapon, but what happened to make him pull the trigger?
Why the pause then more gunshots?
I understand that the brandishing accusation was prior to the police getting there, that’s why they were called. I’m usually a support the cops kinda guy, but this one troubles me. In the video it appears his hands were in no position to use a gun. The police had himnon his stomach and I find it hard to believe from what I saw that they couldn’t control his arms.
In assuming when one cop said “he’s got a gun” they went into panic mode. From what I’ve seen, the cops arenon shaky ground.
Not “He’s going for a gun”. The guy was on his stomach with his hands behind him, the gun was in his pocket, and the claim is that a police officer said “He’s got a gun!”, which is something they already suspected from the report they received.