# "Battery-like device", a.k.a. ultracapatitor...plausible?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 7, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376 "2007-09-07T16:06:11Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/1 "2007-09-07T16:06:11Z")
Was reading [this](http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/09/07/electric.car.batteries.ap/index.html) article on CNN about a possible breakthrough technology in electrical powered devices and thought I’d see how possible/plausible it is. The article itself seems to walk a tightrope between being wided eyed and skeptical.
> [@](#):
>
> AUSTIN, Texas (AP) – Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent office each year. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders spotted six words in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the internal combustion engine.
>
> An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised “technologies for replacement of electrochemical batteries,” meaning a motorist could plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between Dallas and Houston without gasoline.
What do you think? Another hoax? Delusion? Or maybe the first steps on the path towards a revolutionary new electrically powered personal transport powered world (‘many other functions’)?
-XT
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### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/2 "2007-09-07T16:20:27Z")
Let’s assume that they have an energy-storage device that stores as much energy in the same volume as a tank of gasoline, and gives electricity to drive the motors of an electric car.
The real problem then becomes transferring energy to the storage device.
I have read that, when you fill up a gas tank, you are transferring chemical energy into it at a rate of something like 2 megawatts.
If the company is proposing to refill its storage devices at the same rate, either they’re swapping discharged contents for charged contents (which implies a totally new infrastructure at and behind each ‘fueling’ station to handle the contents and recharge them)… or, it’s proposing to pump electricity into them at a rate of megawatts, which implies a Really Big Plug, at the least, plus new electrical infrastructure.
:: reads article ::
Okay, they’re talking about ultracapacitors.
Hope the’re robust and can handle the bangs and jiggles of life on the road… and that their leakage rate is low. But to recharge them in a reasonable amount of time is going to require the Really Big Plugs I mentioned.
Mind you, even smaller ultracaps might be very useful. I’m thinking laptop batteries here…
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/3 "2007-09-07T16:21:13Z")
AFAIK, such a concept is not in the realm of the paranormal or impossible, surely. But it looks like this company is taking a route similar to [Steorn’s,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424219) of looking for investors before producing anything that actually works. While that may be the road to riches, it is rarely the road to scientific breakthroughs.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/4 "2007-09-07T16:24:45Z")
In case anyone doesn’t know and are interested, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultracapacitors) is a wiki article on supercapacitor/ultracapacitors:
> [@](#):
>
> A supercapacitor or ultracapacitor is an electrochemical capacitor that has an unusually high energy density when compared to common capacitors. They are of particular interest in automotive applications for hybrid vehicles and as supplementary storage for battery electric vehicles.
-XT
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/5 "2007-09-07T16:25:16Z")
I **hope** it really works. It would have a lot of implications beyond cars – it might make blackout-vulnerable, energy-leaking power lines and power grids and central power distribution systems obsolete. It might even make electrial outlets obsolete – every light bulb and appliance in your home could run off its own EESTor capacitor. (See Heinlein’s novel [_Friday_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_%28novel%29) for the revolutionary applications of a superbattery called the “Shipstone.”) But I note in the linked article that experts in the field are skeptical.
> [@](#):
>
> “We’ve been trying to make this type of thing for 20 years and no one has been able to do it,” said Robert Hebner, director of the University of Texas Center for Electromechanics. “Depending on who you believe, they’re at or beyond the limit of what is possible.”
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/6 "2007-09-07T16:42:29Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme]
What do you think?
[/QUOTE]
[The patent](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,033,406.PN.&OS=PN/7,033,406&RS=PN/7,033,406) was filed six years ago. I think that if they had anything real we’d have heard more about it by now. Six years is a _lot_ of development time.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/7 "2007-09-07T16:45:27Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
The patent was filed six years ago. I think that if they had anything real we’d have heard more about it by now. Six years is a lot of development time.
[/QUOTE]
Is it? I don’t really know to be honest. I wonder if there are any patents on possible fusion technology kicking around out there.
Its probably a load, but I thought I’d ask here and see anyway. Would be nice if it were true…which is probably why its not.
-XT
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/8 "2007-09-07T16:55:37Z")
Ultracapacitors are all about surface area. If you had a way to fill a tub with hollow carbon nanotubes, and utilize all that surface area, you might be able to store a very large charge. It’s making the device practical that’s difficult.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/9 "2007-09-07T18:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme]
Is it? I don’t really know to be honest.
[/QUOTE]
Well, you can patent an actual breakthrough technology, or you can patent what you think _might be_ a breakthrough technology, and then try to realize it for six years. Eestor appears to have done the later, and lots of things that might be wonderful never come to pass.
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### Author:  [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/10 "2007-09-07T18:37:44Z")
I’ve seen articles on [EEStor](http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php) making promises from early 2006 saying it’s juuuust around the corner.
I’ll put this in my “show me it when it works” file.
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### Author:  [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/11 "2007-09-07T20:16:55Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
Well, you can patent an actual breakthrough technology, or you can patent what you think _might be_ a breakthrough technology, and then try to realize it for six years. Eestor appears to have done the later, and lots of things that might be wonderful never come to pass.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes stuff gets patented that there is no way in hell we can manufacture it. [Magnetic vortex wormhole generator](http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030197093.html) or if you prefer here is the [pdf of the patent](http://www.scribd.com/doc/25112/Magnetic-Votrex-Wormhole-Generator).
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/12 "2007-09-07T20:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=erie774]
Sometimes stuff gets patented that there is no way in hell we can manufacture it. [Magnetic vortex wormhole generator](http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030197093.html) or if you prefer here is the [pdf of the patent](http://www.scribd.com/doc/25112/Magnetic-Votrex-Wormhole-Generator).
[/QUOTE]
Wow! The doubletalk quotient in that write-up was off the charts!
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/13 "2007-09-07T21:26:49Z")
In related news, a group of scientists at UCLA [claim to have achieved cold fusion.](http://rodan.physics.ucla.edu/pyrofusion/) But don’t get too excited.
> [@](#):
>
> The researchers say that this method of producing nuclear fusion won’t be useful for normal power generation, but it might find applications in the generation of neutron beams for research purposes, and perhaps as a propulsion mechanism for miniature spacecraft.
Also reported in the [CSM,](http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0606/p25s01-stss.html) which actually ended the story with:
> [@](#):
>
> For the time being, don’t expect fusion to become a readily available energy option. The current cold fusion apparatus still takes much more energy to start up than you get back out, and it may never end up breaking even. In the mean time, the crystal-fusion device might be used as a compact source of neutrons and X-rays, something that could turn out to be useful making small scanning machines. **But it really may not be long until we have the first nuclear fusion-powered devices in common use.**
_sigh_
That was two years ago, and I don’t recall seeing anything about it since.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/14 "2007-09-08T04:04:18Z")
I’ve toyed with the idea of taking one issue of _Popular Science_ and writing a sci-fi story set 20 years in the future that assumes every single blurb came true.
Pulling a random issue from the shelf, I see an item about a robotic plane fly over the Martian surface, computers that correctly interpret vague voice commands and, amusingly enough, a few paragraphs about an ultra-capacitor replacement for the battery of a Ford pickup. All from March, 1998.
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/15 "2007-09-08T06:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=Hampshire]
I’ve seen articles on [EEStor](http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php) making promises from early 2006 saying it’s juuuust around the corner.
[/QUOTE]
Cool, I can power my flying car with it :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/16 "2007-09-08T17:45:05Z")
This was a crucial component of Steorn’s Orbo, which must be what’s causing the delay…
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### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/17 "2007-09-08T17:53:10Z")
[QUOTE=beowulff]
Ultracapacitors are all about surface area.
[/QUOTE]
It’s more than just surface area. In addition to that, capacity is also determined by plate separation distance. The closer you can get them, the higher the capacitance. The problem with that is that as your separation distance becomes smaller (and, necessarily, the thickness of the dielectric separating them) the voltage you can apply shrinks. Since the total energy a capacitor can store depends on charge AND voltage, there are some limits on how small you can make a capacitor to hold a given amount of energy. Maybe if I’m bored later I’ll work out how much energy it would take to drive a car 500 miles and how large a cap would be required to store that much. I suspect with current technology and materials it would wind up being MUCH larger than the car itself.
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/18 "2007-09-08T18:19:26Z")
Heinlein talked about this kind of tech in his novel _Friday_.
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### Author:  [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/19 "2007-09-08T18:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
It’s more than just surface area. In addition to that, capacity is also determined by plate separation distance.
[/QUOTE]
Well, to quote a famous SDMB contributor, “No Shit”.
The plate separation of an ultracapacitor is unlikely to improve very much, since it is determined by the thickness of an electrolytic oxide. However, there is still quite a bit of room for improvement in the surface area department.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [September 8, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battery-like-device-a-k-a-ultracapatitor-plausible/418376/20 "2007-09-08T18:48:10Z")
[One critical assessment](http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9771053-1.html) points out that charging an ultracapacitor like that would require 750 KW service, which maybe the power transmission lines have, but households do not.
If this is more than vaporware then the best case is that it leaves open the possibility of special charging stations on interstates to address the range limitations of pure BEVs going cross-country. Charge at home would need to be by some special device that loaded its charge slowly, say during off-peak hrs, and then dumped it in before use.
Me? I’m buying the Li battery stocks (CBAK especially - they’re A123’s main sub, and ABAT and as part of their business JCI) and not fretting that if EESTOR comes through these companies are history.
Sometimes things too good to be true are too good to be true.
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