# Battle of Cannae: "double" envelopment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 11, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169 "2018-09-11T15:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/21 "2018-09-15T14:20:14Z")
🙂 Well, Hannibal was in no position to call an audible, figuratively or literally, he spent the battle in the Center fighting for his life. His Lt on the flanks might have, the Romans seemed completely surprised. Now, the Centurions at Pydna, certainly _did_ call audibles when they saw gaps appearing. I like the term. Going to use it now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/22 "2018-09-15T14:33:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > A lot of it is psychological. Soldiers don’t fight well when there is an enemy to their rear, and when you are surrounded, it’s **all rear**. Ah yes, but it’s also perforce all **front**. As legendary Marine Chesty Puller is said to have quipped, “We’re surrounded ? Excellent. Now we can shoot at them from every direction”. > [@Whack-a-mole](#): > > IIRC Hannibal arranged his troops with the weak ones in the middle and the strong one at either side. This was an unusual thing to do. Usually the strong troops are in the middle. Not necessarily. The traditional phalanx strategy was to put the heaviest, best equipped troops on the right flank because a) due to the shield being worn on the left hand, the right flank was perforce the least protected so heavier troops would fare better there and b) hopefully better fighters would quickly dispatch the relatively weak units a more traditional opponent had there and then be able to roll up the entire line. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/23 "2018-09-15T16:39:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah yes, but it’s also perforce all **front**. As legendary Marine Chesty Puller is said to have quipped, “We’re surrounded ? Excellent. Now we can shoot at them from every direction”. When you have absolute air superiority and outnumber the in Arty… Somehow I suspect, the AVR; \*Aeris vires Romana \* were absent that day. > [@](#): > > Not necessarily. The traditional phalanx strategy was to put the heaviest, best equipped troops on the right flank because a) due to the shield being worn on the left hand, the right flank was perforce the least protected so heavier troops would fare better there and b) hopefully better fighters would quickly dispatch the relatively weak units a more traditional opponent had there and then be able to roll up the entire line. Which is another thing which caused problems against the \*Exercitus Romanus \* ---
**Author:** ![Stinky\_Pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Stinky\_Pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stinky_Pete)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/24 "2018-09-16T00:04:34Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > You need to bear in mind that communication during a battle was practically non-existent. A general would tell his commanders what he planned and maybe a few contingencies, and they would do the same with their own officers. Once the battle started there was no way to change the plan. This quite correct. The bigger the battle the harder for the top commander to control and sometimes to even have any idea if they are winning or losing. The OP mentioned smoke/dust and noise interfering and he is quite right that this was also a terrible challenge for commanders. Using horns or drums or colored flags would be used to send commands over distances. Also they might send a runner to carry a message. Unfortunately this runner could get lost, blown up, or lose his nerve and terribly often the messages didn’t get thru or came late and after the circumstances had drastically changed. Later when technology permitted other communication methods could be used like sending up colored flares or rockets. At least at the starting years of World War II radios were very often in short supply or unreliable and still generals often had little idea what was happening with their troops. Most always a smart move for the general was to keep several battalions in reserve nearby under his control to use if the situation called for it. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/25 "2018-09-16T00:14:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah yes, but it’s also perforce all **front**. As legendary Marine Chesty Puller is said to have quipped, “We’re surrounded ? Excellent. Now we can shoot at them from every direction”. Or as Bedford Forrest once say: “Charge 'em both ways!” ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169/26 "2018-09-16T06:24:41Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > [Bolding Mine] It was the Romans who were surrounded. I somehow in my mind had the battle of Cannae being Alexander the Great vs. the Persians and was so sure about this I didn’t bother to look it up. I apparently conflated a whole bunch of different things I read, providing a very good example of just how bad human memory can be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-cannae-double-envelopment/821169.md?page=1)