# Battle of Stalingrad far more important than D-Day in defeating Germans?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 13, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686 "2008-10-13T06:21:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/1 "2008-10-13T06:21:57Z")
That is [asserted here](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070122201429AAvioJE). I always thought D-Day was the main crushing blow.
> [@](#):
>
> Good detail. I just read about the battle of Stalingrad and it turns out that it much more important in striking a blow against the German’s than d-day ever was.
[Battle of Stalingrad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)
[D-Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Normandy)
Was the Battle off Stalingrad much more important than D-Day?
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### Author:  [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/2 "2008-10-13T06:30:58Z")
I wouldn’t say Stalingrad was “more important”. D-Day gave the Allies a foothold in France, and marked the beginning of the end on the Western front. If Germany had repelled the landing, the war would have lasted longer. German casualties at Stalingrad may have done more damage to their war machine, but the strategic importance of D-Day balances things out in my book.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/3 "2008-10-13T06:41:31Z")
Eastern Front more important than Western? Sure. Stalingrad the epitome of Soviet victory over Germany? I’m not so sure. Stalingrad was the first decisive Soviet victory\*, and a huge one, although expensive…but I think of Kursk and Bagration as bigger deals.
\*Yes, the Sovs also stopped them outside Moscow and reversed some gains in the winter, but it wasn’t anything like Stalingrad.
However – without D-Day, the Soviets could still have won, making Stalingrad still meaningfuk…and America would still have survived. But without Stalingrad (or equivalent defeat elsewhere), Germany probably would have conquered Russia and made D-Day moot – no point in dropping a few divisions onto the shore of two completely occupied continents and a Germany flush with Russia’s resources.
So in that sense, Stalingrad was the sine qua non for D-Day.
Sailboat
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/4 "2008-10-13T06:49:53Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Eastern Front play a part in why Germany was defeated in Normandy?
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/5 "2008-10-13T07:09:31Z")
The main premise of the push towards the East for Nazi Germany was acquiring resources, foremost to everything else, oil.
It was a matter of simple accounting and logistics, the Nazi war machine was on its way to a grinding halt for lack of resources, they desperately needed to grab more.
Stalingrad was when and where that plan came to an end.
The beast began to starve and it was just a matter of when, not if, it would die.
Also, don’t forget that the Western Allies and Russians arrived pretty much at the same time to Berlin. Even without a D-Day things would have ended about the same time.
Of course, what would had happened to Europe after the war would had been very different.
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### Author:  [@Paladud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paladud)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/6 "2008-10-13T07:09:58Z")
Kursk was more significant than either.
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### Author:  [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/7 "2008-10-13T09:40:53Z")
Kursk was part of the defeat of the German Operation Citadel.
It was part of an overall defeat called operation Bagration, which has already been mentioned.
The objectoive of Citadel was to shorten the Axis front, and so free up resources for other operations.
It was already noted by Axis commanders that the front had a salient that was unsustainable, however Citadel relied upon having a certain number of Axis divisions, however these were not up to strength and were in many cases lacking experience.
A succesful operation Citadel would only have delayed things, one could argue that this attempted attack in itself shortened the war by using up vital resources and destroying axis units.
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### Author:  [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/8 "2008-10-13T10:56:14Z")
> [@Sailboat](#):
>
> Eastern Front more important than Western? Sure. Stalingrad the epitome of Soviet victory over Germany? I’m not so sure. Stalingrad was the first decisive Soviet victory\*, and a huge one, although expensive…but I think of Kursk and Bagration as bigger deals.
>
> \*Yes, the Sovs also stopped them outside Moscow and reversed some gains in the winter, but it wasn’t anything like Stalingrad.
>
> However – without D-Day, the Soviets could still have won, making Stalingrad still meaningfuk…and America would still have survived. But without Stalingrad (or equivalent defeat elsewhere), Germany probably would have conquered Russia and made D-Day moot – no point in dropping a few divisions onto the shore of two completely occupied continents and a Germany flush with Russia’s resources.
>
> So in that sense, Stalingrad was the sine qua non for D-Day.
>
> Sailboat
The Russians were almost as evil a dictatorship as the Nazis,their ex allies in the invasion of Poland, and had cold bloodily murdered and enslaved even more people then the Germans had in the "Purges"alone .
So if D Day had failed and the Soviets had in the end successfully defeated Adolf and his friends(Which was probable) then Europe would have under their dictatorship rather then his.
So its not really a case of saying that the Russians did more to ensure world freedom during WW2 then the Western allies.
The Russians fought ONLY for their own interests after their former ally turned on them.
Though Britain ended up fighting for its life after all of its European allies had surrendered it initially entered the war out of moral principles as did the Commonwealth.
Though Germany actually declared war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbour rather then vice versa Americas incredibly intensive participation in the European war was due to "Doing the right thing"rather then any self interest.
Comparison between Russian participation and Western allied participation in the war is inappropriate.
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### Author:  [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/9 "2008-10-13T11:16:31Z")
While **Lust4Life** looks at the Allied role through rose-coloured glasses, he’s got the idea down. The Eastern Front victories, Stalingrad among them, saved Europe from Hitler. D-Day saved Europe from Stalin.
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### Author:  [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/10 "2008-10-13T12:24:28Z")
I would need to look up the exact numbers, but from memory over 90% of German military casualties in WWII were suffered on the Eastern fronts.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/11 "2008-10-13T13:49:47Z")
Germany was fighting three different wars in 1944 and losing all three of them. The Soviets would have beaten them eventually without any help from America and England. America and England would have invaded France and beaten Germany without any help from the Soviets. And even if there had been no land battles, Germany would have still been beaten by the air bombing campaign and atomic bomb.
Germany was certain to lose World War II and it was just a race to see who would win first.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/12 "2008-10-13T15:40:08Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#):
>
> The Russians were almost as evil a dictatorship as the Nazis,their ex allies in the invasion of Poland, and had cold bloodily murdered and enslaved even more people then the Germans had in the "Purges"alone .
>
> So if D Day had failed and the Soviets had in the end successfully defeated Adolf and his friends(Which was probable) then Europe would have under their dictatorship rather then his.
>
> So its not really a case of saying that the Russians did more to ensure world freedom during WW2 then the Western allies.
>
> The Russians fought ONLY for their own interests after their former ally turned on them.
>
> Though Britain ended up fighting for its life after all of its European allies had surrendered it initially entered the war out of moral principles as did the Commonwealth.
>
> Though Germany actually declared war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbour rather then vice versa Americas incredibly intensive participation in the European war was due to "Doing the right thing"rather then any self interest.
>
> Comparison between Russian participation and Western allied participation in the war is inappropriate.
I think you’re making a point that’s completely outside the scope of what I was talking about.
Nowhere in my post did I say anything at all about the goodness of Soviet Russia and certainly did not imply they ensured freedom.
It is a matter of incontrovertible fact that the Eastren Front consumed more resources and destroyed more German warmaking caopacity than the Western Front (leaving the bomber offensive out of the picture, anyway, since bombing did not require D-Day). You can feel any way you wish about the war and the morality of the goevernments engaged, but you can’t change the objective fact that, to use the commonly quoted figure, 75% of the German war effort was expended against the Soviets.
And Comparison between Russian participation and Western allied participation in the war is pretty much the question asked in the OP. It’s not inappropriate.
For the record I agree that without D-Day, the great contest for Europe’s politics between Soviet and Western influences would have been over before it began. But that’s irrelevant to what I posted.
Sailboat
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/13 "2008-10-13T15:59:10Z")
> [@casdave](#):
>
> Kursk was part of the defeat of the German Operation Citadel.
>
> It was part of an overall defeat called operation Bagration, which has already been mentioned.
Gosh, no, it was not. This is like claiming that the Battle of Britain was part of D-Day.
Kursk was a defensive battle (from the Soviet perspective) fought in the summer of 1943. The German plan to destroy a large part of the Soviet army with an enveloping offensive generally failed over the course of about a month in July-August 1943.
Bagration was fought a year later, and is the code word for a gigantic Soviet offensive designed to crush Army Group Centre. It was massively successful.
Kursk and Bagration are not the same battle.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/14 "2008-10-13T16:03:54Z")
> [@villa](#):
>
> I would need to look up the exact numbers, but from memory over 90% of German military casualties in WWII were suffered on the Eastern fronts.
Exactly. Americans tend to think it was America who singlehandedly defeated Hitler. I forget who is the author of the quote:
> [@](#):
>
> In WWII, Britain contributed the time, America contributed the money and Russia contributed the blood.
Russia suffered enourmous casualties and endured suffering like America can not even imagine. All that has been minimized historically when they turned into being the bad guys.
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/15 "2008-10-13T16:07:03Z")
I think that Htler and his generals realized that victory (in Russia) was no longer possible after Stalingrad. No matter how many advanced tanks were produced, Germany was on the downward slope. My question: that would have been the time for the German generals to have killed Hitler and sued for peace-surely the realization was sinking in (that Russia would eventually overwhelm the German army).
another point: seeing all the dead and wounded coming back from the Russian front must have been shocking for the German civilians-were they in denial? or was the nazi propaganda machine still promising victory? German casualties (by mid 19430 have to be over 1 million-that must have had a huge impact upon morale.
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/16 "2008-10-13T16:11:18Z")
My family was originally from Ukraine. My wife is an immigrant from Ukraine. Her parents and her grandmother are still living. They endured Russia from pre-WWII until the fall of the USSR. Have you ever heard of the [Holodomor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)? Granny endured that. Have you ever heard of Siberia? Following WWII, the whole family got packed of there for a seven year stay, courtesy of the Russians. When they were finally permitted to return, following Stalin’s death, they were on a KGB watch list. They, as well as everybody else in Ukraine, endured decades of privation and oppression at the hands of the Russians.
You know what?
The Russians _were_ fucking badguys.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/17 "2008-10-13T16:15:22Z")
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> The Russians _were_ fucking badguys.
What?! You mean _Song of Russia_ lied to me?
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/18 "2008-10-13T16:30:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> My question: that would have been the time for the German generals to have killed Hitler and sued for peace-surely the realization was sinking in (that Russia would eventually overwhelm the German army).
They tried. The von Stauffenberg plot was hatched as response to Stalingrad.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/19 "2008-10-13T16:32:35Z")
I am reminded of the old joke
> [@](#):
>
> -How’s your wife?
> -Depends. Compared to who?
> [@Scumpup](#):
>
> You know what?
> The Russians _were_ fucking badguys.
Compared to who?
In this thread we are discussing Stalingrad. In Stalingrad they were the good guys.
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### Author:  [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-of-stalingrad-far-more-important-than-d-day-in-defeating-germans/467686/20 "2008-10-13T16:58:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> America and England would have invaded France and beaten Germany without any help from the Soviets.
Now this I cannot agree with (the rest of it, maybe so). I don’t think the willingness would have been there for a French invasion into the teeth of the Wehrmacht.
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