# battle royale - casablanca vs. gone with the wind **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 19, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408 "2001-10-19T13:13:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/21 "2001-10-19T20:17:00Z")
Two words: Claude Rains. I mean Bogie played Bogie parts very well, indeed, as Bergman plyed Bergman parts well, but Rains was an ACTOR! Since we all pretty much agree that Casablanca is best, I hope the OP won’t mind a slight hijack. As much as I love the film, do the Paris scenes suck or what? What’s Bergman say when she hears the artillery? “Was that my heat?” Ugh!!! But from what I’ve read, the great Epstein brothers didn’t write the Paris flashback. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![ScriptAnalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@ScriptAnalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScriptAnalyst)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/22 "2001-10-19T20:26:58Z")
I can easily imagine myself going the rest of my life without ever seeing GONE WITH THE WIND again. But I will also enjoy the opportunity to view CASABLANCA another time. However, I should add that, despite what other posters have said, CASABLANCA is far from a perfect movie. It’s a movie whose strengths so far outweigh the weaknesses that we are blind to them. For instance, Ingrid Bergman’s character is not that well written, but her luminous screen presence more than makes up for this deficiency. Steve Biodrowski [http://www.thescriptanalyst.com](http://www.thescriptanalyst.com) ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/23 "2001-10-19T20:36:45Z")
“heart,” not “heat.” ---
**Author:** ![octothorpe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b77776/32.png) [@octothorpe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octothorpe)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/24 "2001-10-19T21:25:25Z")
**Casablanca.** The only redeeming note in GWTW is Rhett giving the manipulative Scarlett her comeuppance. Unfortunately, one must suffer through the entire ‘production’ to get to it (the longest week i ever spent one night). A beautiful movie? Sure, but so are countless ‘nature’ documentaries. _Casablanca_ has some of the best lines ever put on screen: **Rick** - “How can you close me up? On what grounds?” **Louis** - “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!” **Emil** - “Your winnings,sir.” **Louis** - “Oh, thank you very much.” It has humor and malaise, the characters are human, and you’re not beat over the head with the message. It appears unanimous; _‘Everybody Goes to Rick’s’._ * * * If she can stand it I can. - Richard ‘Rick’ Blaine # ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/25 "2001-10-19T23:30:56Z")
With no hesitation, Casablanca. I don’t think I’ve ever even seen all of GWTW, but I also don’t feel like my life is the poorer for it. But I will always be willing to view Casablanca multiple times. It’s my favorite movie. Having said that, I am willing to acknowledge that Citizen Kane is a better movie (it’s my second-favorite – a close second, and I would love to see it on the big screen some time, instead of on my television). In re: The Maltese Falcon, **Ike** , I understand and respect your opinion. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen MF, and I just may review both it and Casablanca back to back this weekend. But after reading your first post, I thought about it, and I still plump for Casablanca. Everything you said about the characters and the acting (Gawd, Elisha Cook is marvelous, isn’t he?) is true. But Casablanca is about finding nobility in an otherwise jaded person, whereas Maltese Falcon is about venal, base pursuits. Not that I don’t admire venality and baseness, but I always feel uplifted and hopeful after watching Rick sacrifice his happiness with Ilsa for the greater good. And, personally, I think Ingrid Bergman is just a better babe than Mary Astor. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/26 "2001-10-20T02:03:18Z")
Well, I’m not denigrating _Casablanca_, certainly…it’s one of my favorite movies, too. I probably would reach for the _Falcon_ first for the flipside of the reason you gave for preferring the former…_The Maltese Falcon_ is fatalistic, darker and gloomier, and all the people in it are nasty ratlike fellows sniffing for a sucker’s wallet, a free taste of squack or the easy coleslaw. What can I say? I like _DOA_ a lot, too. And _Ace in the Hole_. And most other films noirs. (To open up another whole can of worms, I never really got the “luminous beauty” of Ingrid Bergman. To me, she’s this big old Swedish chick with a broad pan and big feet.) ---
**Author:** ![octothorpe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b77776/32.png) [@octothorpe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octothorpe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/27 "2001-10-20T06:32:38Z")
**Ukelele Ike** To help contain the worms i offer up this tasty little tidbit: At Ingrid’s funeral was a lone violinist playing _“As time Goes By”_ At least she showed a little class. # ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/28 "2001-10-20T15:07:39Z")
All right, so I’d watch _Casablanca_. However, I still feel that I must put in a good word for _Gone With the Wind._ It’s a fine film, and one of the things that I find most impressive about it (and which it shares with _Casablanca_, by the way), is that I have found different things to like about it over the many years I have watched it. The love story made me cry when I was twelve, the horror of the Civil War made me cry when I was a teenager, I enjoyed being smug about the racist stereotypes when I was in college, later, when I rejoined the real world, I was intrigued by the ability of the black actors to give such moving performances of characters written to be mostly buffoons. At present, I’m captivated by the one true love story in the film, Scarlett’s love for Tara. As much as I savor _The Maltese Falcon_, **Ike** , I’m going to choose _Casablanca_ in that particular celebrity death match. For me, _Casablanca_ is a neverending joy for the same reasons that I love _GWTW_ – it “works” for me no matter what approach I take with it. It’s satisfying whether you are wanting Ilsa to stay with Rick or hoping he will make her go. I love how almost everything in the movie can be viewed as either sentimental or jaded. It’s like a puzzle with pieces that fit together seamlessly no matter which way you turn them around. [Edited by Ukulele Ike on 10-20-2001 at 04:45 PM] ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/29 "2001-10-20T16:26:20Z")
I’d pick Casablanca over Gone with the Wind. But I don’t understand the hostility some people seem to have towards GWTW. In my opinion GWTW is one of the best American movies ever made and it certainly deserves to be compared to other great movies like Casablanca. Yeah it was a long movie that covered a lot of years but they did an excellent job making it. Marc ---
**Author:** ![scampering\_gremlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@scampering\_gremlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scampering_gremlin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/30 "2001-10-20T17:11:23Z")
Another vote for _Casablanca_, along with one ironic observation: _Gone with the Wind_ always inspires a certain amount of ire over racial issues. Isn’t it odd how seldom _Casablanca_ viewers notice that, in a story where everybody wants the Germans out of Paris, nobody stops to ask what the Moroccans think about the French ruling Casablanca? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/31 "2001-10-20T17:17:49Z")
Honestly, probably 75% of casual Casablanca fans (not those on the SDMB, however!) have no real idea of where Casablanca is, or it’s history. Plus, off-hand I don’t recall any truly demeaning portrayals of Moroccans in the film. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![scampering\_gremlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@scampering\_gremlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scampering_gremlin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/32 "2001-10-20T17:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sir Rhosis \* > \*\*Honestly, probably 75% of casual Casablanca fans (not those on the SDMB, however!) have no real idea of where Casablanca is, or it’s history. > > Sir Rhosis \*\* Golly. Are they still off getting popcorn when the map and the narration explains it all at the start of the film? ---
**Author:** ![scampering\_gremlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@scampering\_gremlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scampering_gremlin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/33 "2001-10-20T17:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sir Rhosis \* > \*\*Plus, off-hand I don’t recall any truly demeaning portrayals of Moroccans in the film. > \*\* “For friends of Rick we have a discount. Did I say 700 francs? For you it is 200.” ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/34 "2001-10-20T17:29:43Z")
Sit down a person of even average intelligence and ask him once he has seen the film to explain what he learned in the opening narration. He has probably forgotten it. I still don’t think the racist depictions in this film equal GWTW. TMMV. Agree to disagree. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/35 "2001-10-20T17:39:55Z")
Plus, there’s Sam, an unfortunate Stepin Fetchit stereotype who calls Bogie “Mistah Rick” and lives to serve. And Ilsa asks someone (Karl? I forget.) about “the boy” who plays the piano. I’ve always wondered if that line marked the movie definitively as Made In America. Were the French so condescending toward black people in the 30s and 40s? Granted, _Casablanca_ isn’t nearly as racist in its depictions or assumptions as _Gone With The Wind._ But there’s still something there. I stand by my comments about _The Maltese Falcon_ generally and Mary Astor in particular. ---
**Author:** ![labdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5fc32e/32.png) [@labdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labdude)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/36 "2001-10-21T01:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\*Plus, there’s Sam, an unfortunate Stepin Fetchit stereotype who calls Bogie “Mistah Rick” … \*\* as covered in another thread it’s common for southerners to refer to their elders or bosses as Mr. First Name. About half of my customers refer to me a Mr. Michael. Some even say Mista Michael, because of the accents. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/37 "2001-10-21T01:32:54Z")
Granted, **labdude** (I’m a Southerner myself). But it was nowhere established in the movie that Sam is a Southerner, and none of Rick’s other employees addressed him that way. And there’s still Ilsa’s “boy” to be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/38 "2001-10-21T04:57:46Z")
Yes, Sam is in many ways a racial stereotype, but probably due to Dooley Wilson’s ability as an actor, Sam sometimes rises above the stereotype, and seems to be on a level with Rick, imho. He enjoys barbing both Rick and Feratti (if I remember Geenstreet’s character’s name), when Feratti wants to buy his services as an entertainer. Many times when he says to Rick, “Yes, boss,” he delivers the line with a roll of his eyes, a shake of his head, as if he is used to being the stronger of the two, and is doing what Rick asks or says to humor the lesser man. A lesser actor would not have been able to imbue the simply written character with as much dignity as Wilson. Sometimes, it seems to me, Sam is the only truly level-headed person in the film. But, yes, Ilsa’s use of the word “boy,” (or more aptly, the Epstein’s or Koch’s or whoever wrote it’s) is sick and abominable, no matter the attitudes and practices of the day. To tie it in to the OP, Wilson was able to imbue his character with some dignity whereas the actresses in GWTW didn’t have the benefit of nearly as many fairly-well rounded character scenes written for them. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/39 "2001-10-21T05:40:21Z")
**Casablanca** Bogey, he da man! I’ve never even seen Gone with the Wind, nor read the book, nor plan to see the sequel, or whatever. :wally ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408/40 "2001-10-21T05:41:46Z")
Casablanca is my very favorite movie, followed by a tie between Maltese Falcon and Citizen Kane (hey, I got taste). Gone with the Wind is wonderful, but it wouldn’t make my top ten. I’m watching The Truman Show now, and it occurs to me that this is a remake of The Prisoner, without being nearly so pretentious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battle-royale-casablanca-vs-gone-with-the-wind/88408.md?page=3)