# Battleship versus Aircraft carrier: Out of ammo edition **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562 "2012-07-17T21:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/21 "2012-07-18T16:11:36Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > The OP doesn’t specify this. No, I mentioned meeting face-to-face. Assuming there was an attempt to capture and not sink the other vessel, if the Nimitz were able to close within boarding distance, It’s height advantage would allow the Nimitz crew to pin down the Iowa defenders until a significant number of Nimitz crew members had boarded the Iowa. Advantage Nimitz. The advantage would then swing to the Iowa crew because they would be fighting on their own ship which they would be very familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/22 "2012-07-18T16:24:13Z")
By now you all know the starting set up: Nimitz versus Iowa, starting distance 10 miles. The Nimitz can have or not have planes aboard at your option. Neither ship has any ammunition aboard aside from small arms ammunition for side arms. Neither ship has fuel either for its engines or embarked aircraft. Who wins and how is the battle fought? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/23 "2012-07-18T16:25:28Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Yes, the weather could change the equation. The Iowas are wet ships, so Nimitz could probably outrun her in a heavy sea. I should add though, the Nimitz would have more problems in a cross-wind. That high hull acts as a big sail. Although she could run, getting herself into a position to ram could be a problem. I think she’d also lose more speed making a turn, and would take longer to get back up to full speed after doing so, due to a lower power-weight ratio. > [@Telemark](#): > > Ignorance fought, thanks. You’re welcome. Although the hypothetical is ridiculous, it does highlight real issues of ship design. Speed is a function of hull form, installed power and propeller efficiency. There are lots of myths about the speed of the nuclear powered carriers. In reality, they have about as much engine power as the conventional ones. Even if they had twice as much power, that would only translate to a theoretical increase in speed of about 4 knots, and you wouldn’t get that in practise due to increased [cavitation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation) and a non-linear increase in hydrodynamic drag. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/24 "2012-07-18T17:15:47Z")
Is there any way for the aircraft carrier to bring some of its nuclear fuel into the fray, setting up some sort of directed radiation funnel pointed toward the battleship? If they could manage either to fry the battleship’s circuitry, or to give radiation sickness to the crew, that might be a pretty big advantage. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/25 "2012-07-18T17:23:26Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > By now you all know the starting set up: Nimitz versus Iowa, starting distance 10 miles. The Nimitz can have or not have planes aboard at your option. Neither ship has any ammunition aboard aside from small arms ammunition for side arms. Neither ship has fuel either for its engines or embarked aircraft. Who wins and how is the battle fought? 12th century battle tactics. No fuel and no engines means the vessel that best hanesses the wind has the advantage. You’ll need to divert crews to manually steer the ship (similar to the USS Johnston (DD-557) during the Battle off Samar). Hang bedsheets, canvas, plywood sheets, sheetmetal, parachutes, and anything else that will hold the wind. Ropes, wire, pulley blocks, and strong backs would be needed to make it work. I see a running gun battle at 4 mph, depending on the angle and strength of the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/26 "2012-07-18T17:38:14Z")
Hmmm. Something that occurred to me is that even if the Nimitz has no planes aboard, and I’ll assume no ordnance for the planes since that would construe ammo, if the ships are allowed fuel the Nimitz is carrying a hell of a lot of extremely flammable avgas. I don’t know if the fuel hoses can reach over the edge of the deck or could be Macgyvered to do so, but if so you’ve got a truly ancient battle afoot: Iowa trying to ram while Nimitz spews Greek Fire. Of course the Iowa would probably have to have rammed for Nimitz to spew flaming avgas down on the Iowa’s deck which would almost certainly lead to both ships being set afire, but sacrifices have to be made. They’d have to destroy the Nimitz to save her. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/27 "2012-07-18T17:42:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is there any way for the aircraft carrier to bring some of its nuclear fuel into the fray, setting up some sort of directed radiation funnel pointed toward the battleship? If they could manage either to fry the battleship’s circuitry, or to give radiation sickness to the crew, that might be a pretty big advantage. Kill them with cancer? Probably the cruelest possible weapon… ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/28 "2012-07-18T17:44:25Z")
Can they rig the steam launchers to fling weighted barrels [filled with garbage?] at the Iowa? Sort of an impromptu scorpion? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/29 "2012-07-18T17:48:58Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Can they rig the steam launchers to fling weighted barrels [filled with garbage?] at the Iowa? Sort of an impromptu scorpion? Sure! Can you imagine weighted barrels actually making a difference against the ship, or are you considering them as anti-personnel weapons during boarding actions? I’m thinking the former is hella’ unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/30 "2012-07-18T17:54:04Z")
Could the Iowa do anthing with its main guns? For example, point them over the side and use them to somehow ram the Nimitz. The conditions of this battle are silly and arbitrary but it does lead to interesting solutions. It makes me wonder what would really happen if such an outlandish scenario. It’s similar to a short sci-fi story I read a long time ago where a human was dropped into an arena with another alien to battle to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/31 "2012-07-18T17:56:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Could the Iowa do anthing with its main guns? For example, point them over the side and use them to somehow ram the Nimitz. I’ll permit it. My initial imagining of this whole thing involved boarding actions. > [@Deeg](#): > > The conditions of this battle are silly and arbitrary but it does lead to interesting solutions. It makes me wonder what would really happen if such an outlandish scenario. It’s similar to a short sci-fi story I read a long time ago where a human was dropped into an arena with another alien to battle to the death. Geez, I wonder if the human would try to make gunpowder… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/32 "2012-07-18T17:59:48Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Of course the Iowa would probably have to have rammed for Nimitz to spew flaming avgas down on the Iowa’s deck which would almost certainly lead to both ships being set afire, but sacrifices have to be made. They’d have to destroy the Nimitz to save her. Both decks look pretty metal-ish to me. If the decks were unmanned, I’m wondering if that wouldn’t just piss off the guys on the Iowa that are responsible for repainting the deck… ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/33 "2012-07-18T18:03:06Z")
> [@Mr.Slant](#): > > Geez, I wonder if the human would try to make gunpowder… If I recall (this was a long time ago) there was an invisible force field between the two combatants that kept them apart. The field stopped living things from crossing but allowed inanimate objects. The environment was outside (in a forest?). The alien was constructing a catapult to try to crush the human by flinging rocks through the barrier. The human later learned that the force field only stopped conscious living things. He then knocked himself out in a way that he fell through the barrier. I don’t remember the ending after that. If somebody knows the title of the story I’d love to look it up again. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/34 "2012-07-18T18:09:46Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If I recall (this was a long time ago) there was an invisible force field between the two combatants that kept them apart. The field stopped living things from crossing but allowed inanimate objects. The environment was outside (in a forest?). The alien was constructing a catapult to try to crush the human by flinging rocks through the barrier. The human later learned that the force field only stopped conscious living things. He then knocked himself out in a way that he fell through the barrier. I don’t remember the ending after that. If somebody knows the title of the story I’d love to look it up again. I also read this story, I think the human won but I am not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/35 "2012-07-18T18:16:24Z")
> [@Mr.Slant](#): > > Also, the aircraft carrier does not have any aircraft on board. _Iowa_ wins. Because, believe it or not, _Iowa_ had embarked aircraft that are not ruled out by the OP! During WWII, there were a couple of float planes which could be deployed and recovered by cranes. During later service, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles were aboard. > [@Mr.Slant](#): > > The only ammunition available to the occupants of either vessel is that ammunition normally used in small arms; that is to say, pistols, shotguns or rifles. In this crisis, the _Iowa_’s air contingent (without anti-ship ordnance) could kamikaze onto the _Nimitz_ (if UAVs are available, this will be morally easier to do). Properly done, considerable damage could be inflicted even without bombs or torpedoes. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/36 "2012-07-18T18:20:19Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If I recall (this was a long time ago) there was an invisible force field between the two combatants that kept them apart. The field stopped living things from crossing but allowed inanimate objects. The environment was outside (in a forest?). The alien was constructing a catapult to try to crush the human by flinging rocks through the barrier. The human later learned that the force field only stopped conscious living things. He then knocked himself out in a way that he fell through the barrier. I don’t remember the ending after that. If somebody knows the title of the story I’d love to look it up again. > [@Critical1](#): > > I also read this story, I think the human won but I am not sure. [Arena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_%28short_story%29) by Fredric Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/37 "2012-07-18T18:27:28Z")
Couldn’t the battleship use all of the gunpowder from the samll arms ammunition to make a couple MMacGyver rounds for one of the cannons? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/38 "2012-07-18T19:14:47Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Couldn’t the battleship use all of the gunpowder from the samll arms ammunition to make a couple MMacGyver rounds for one of the cannons? Won’t do much good unless they also have shells. At best, they could pack in the smokeless powder from the small arms with scrap metal, spare hardware, or the bullets from the small arms to get a sort of giant shotgun blast effect. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/39 "2012-07-18T19:31:30Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Couldn’t the battleship use all of the gunpowder from the samll arms ammunition to make a couple MMacGyver rounds for one of the cannons? It’s possible but highly unlikely. The propellent (not gunpowder) used in the 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 is different than the propellent used for 9mm cartridges which is different from the propellent used for the M4/M16 rifles .223 cartridges or the .50 cal round. Since the burn rates of each propellent are different, it’s possible to exceed the pressure limit of the barrel. Firing the gun could result in a spectacular explosion that destroys the barrel and gun turret. 7,000 grains per pound. A maximum charge for the Mark 7 weighed around 650 lbs (4,550,000grs). A 9mm round might have 7grs and a .223 might have 25grs of propellent. One Mark 7 alone weighs 292,000 lbs and there were three per turret. Plus the weght of the turret. Turning and aiming something like that, without electric and hydrolic assistance, would be pretty difficult. Strapping hand grenades to acetylene tanks would be easier and you could roll those off the deck. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562/40 "2012-07-18T19:49:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The deck of a carrier is much higher above the water than the deck of a battleship. This is a huge advantage. The crew of the carrier will be 40 feet or so higher than the battleship crew; and as any infantryman will tell you, the high ground usually wins. The carrier can jerry rig a few Molotov cocktails to toss onto the battleship deck – and with a good shot, directly into the bridge or any other exposed parts. They’ll have cover from which to pepper the BB with small arms fire. The Battleship’s only advantage is speed, but as noted, their fuel is not infinite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battleship-versus-aircraft-carrier-out-of-ammo-edition/628562.md?page=3)