Given the OP’s scenario, the carrier could scuttle itself, and thereby claim* Victory*!
Crazy OP, but a fun thread.
Just picturing the sequence of a “search and destroy” mission on a target only ten miles away:
[mission starts]
Radar: beep
Iowa Captain: Oh, there he is. Destroy him, would you? Thanks.
You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the ship! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: Where is the rebel aircraft carrier?
*pssst, Grand Moff Iowa, if you’re looking for that carrier, just have a look out that porthole there…
In fairness to my meticulously researched OP, ten miles is a lot longer in Ireland than it is in the US. Of course, many things are longer over here. 
Again, nonsense. The destroyers were not doing ‘some damage,’ they sank three heavy cruisers, a very substantial part of Kurita’s force and 25% of the heavy cruiser tonnage of the IJN for the entire war. I have to wonder what you think would be needed to drop the modifier ‘some’ in trying to minimize it.
I’d love to see your sources for this information, since you again are entirely wrong.
Didn’t you say something about the Avengers on the escort carriers not having any torpedoes?:rolleyes:
Well that settles it then, they clearly didn’t do any damage to Kurita at all. Just like the taffies as a whole were incapable of surface actions.
No, what’s confusing is you are willfully unaware of the actual facts: the planes from the escort carriers were responsible in concert with the destroyers and destroyer escorts for sinking three heavy cruisers; the taffies torpedo bombers had torpedoes; and Kurita somehow didn’t manage to come anywhere close to sinking the taffies and in fact only sank one escort carrier.
Big shocker, Yamato envy. One ship does not make Kurita have a superior force. You might want to note Yamato’s actions off of Samar: she was forced to turn north to avoid torpedoes and became separated from the rest of the fleet.
Really?:dubious: Not even the fact that Oldendorf’s battleships ripped Yamashiro apart with radar directed gunfire at Surigao Strait and the Yamashiro couldn’t even return fire? I guess being entirely unable to find a fire solution can be described as not having any problems with fire control in a very warped way. It’s amazing that you’re trying to use this as a negative against Oldendorf’s ships.
This is getting ridiculous. Three of those heavy cruisers had been sunk by the taffies and the other ones had taken damage. How much can you try to dodge this fact?
Do you have anything to back this up aside from your opinion?
Yet oddly in the actual facts of the battle his entire task force only managed to sink one of those escort carriers, and Yamato had to break off to avoid being torpedoed.
You might want to reread the thread since I already noted Princeton’s loss to dive bombing. Which happened before the Battle off Samar. And was part of Halsey’s task force, not the taffies.
No, you’re repeating erroneous information. You may want to take a look at S. E. Morison’s volume on Leyte I linked to earlier; this is one of the things he went into some depth on. He includes a shell count broken down by AP and HC (High Capacity, HE) for each of Oldendorf’s battleships. Oldendorf had more than enough after Surigao Strait to engage Kurita’s force decisively.
Funny, I’m reading the one that says an aircraft carrier and a battleship decide to open battle at under 20,000 yards; first with no planes at all and then no planes in the air. Both conditions qualify as having planes under poor command.
Is the sub carrying anti-ship missiles?
Talking about lines at the liquor store? 
Yes, but they were all installed by the lowest bidder, whose work crews are notorious for drunkenness.
David42, you’ve just had your head handed to you.
Time to take a rest.
A semantic quibble. A note for posterity: here, the destroyers sank three cruisers.
Having an odd torpedo or two around doesn’t change the fact that most of the Taffys’ planes did not have the right ordnance. What exactly was their mission, here, support the invasion, or seek and destroy the IJN?
My claim is not that no escort carrier could ever have an anti-ship role. My point is, if Kurita KNEW that the Taffies did not have a BUNCH MORE torpedoes (they didn’t–are you hand-waving the fact that most hadn’t the proper ordnance?) My point is about how ON THIS MISSION, they weren’t loaded with torpedoes and armor piercing bombs like Halsey was, whose mission was indeed the seek and destroy which you seem to think the Taffies also were doing.
“Taffy 3 was designed to provide shore support and anti-submarine patrols; not to engage in fleet action against battleships.”
Now, it’s my willfull ignorance of the fact that destroyers and planes **together **sank three cruisers.
Above, it was the destroyers, you admitted, when you were quibbling over the meaning of “some.”
Keep in mind, I have myself argued “slight to moderate” damage done by the Taffy’s planes as various sources claim.
And of course making up a phrase like “Yamato Envy” changes the FACT that Yamato class ships could take five times as much damage as a ship like the California. I didn’t claim one ship alone was superior. Kurita started with 10 heavy cruisers, lost two the day before, which leaves 8. Three more sank, leaving five. Oldendorf had four. Kurita had four effective battleships, and the only new one (not counting Halsey, out of range) Oldendorf had three effective battleships, and whether the accountants found some ammunition later or not, believed he was almost out.
I am not talking about Yamashiro having no problems. I am saying Kurita’s force had no problems. Yamashiro was an old battleship outclassed by Oldendorf; Oldendorf’s ships had far better fire control systems (if they worked correctly)than Yamashiro had. For the three battleships Oldendorf had where the fire control was working properly, their range (with accuracy) was greater than Yamashiro’s. You must think Yamashiro and Yamato were sister ships or equivalents. They weren’t. Yamato’s effective range was greater than anything Oldendorf had. Yamato had both modern radar and guns with a greater range. It’s possible one salvo from Yamato could sink California before California could get close enough.
Simply: Oldendorf superior to the southern force does not make Oldendorf superior to the center force.
THREE of Oldendorf’s ships sank Yamashiro. The other three were ineffective. So, Oldendorf wins against Yamashiro. You make the mistake, no doubt due to your enlightened non-“Yamato-envy” view, that Yamashiro was the equivalent of Yamato, which I am unwilling to do. Yamato was state-of-the-art, three years old, equipped with radar fire control, and had a greater range than anything Oldendorf had. You’re arguing what was a three to two advantage in Surigao strait was six to two, ignore the fact that Oldendorf crossed Yamashiro’s “T” and claiming the results would be the same against a far more effective battleship with an additional three old battleships backing her up, without crossing the “T” and, even if they did realize they had ammo at a later date, they thought they had none at the time.
Again, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were not effective in sinking the southern force because they had fire control problems.
"The other three U.S. battleships, equipped with less advanced gunnery radar, had difficulty arriving at a firing solution. Maryland eventually succeeded in visually ranging on the splashes of the other battleships’ shells, and then fired a total of 48 16 in (410 mm) projectiles. Pennsylvania was unable to find a target and her guns remained silent.[4]
“Mississippi only obtained a solution at the end of the battle-line action, and then fired just one (full) salvo of twelve 14 in (360 mm) shells. This was the last salvo ever to be fired by a battleship against another heavy ship, ending an era in naval history.”
I’ve cited this before, why not read it? then you might realize I am not arguing my opinion about it, but FACTS.
You’re right, it’s getting ridiculous. In version three of your opinion, you now claim it was the Jeep carriers that sank the three cruisers.
As I am claiming all along, Kurita would have sank more escort carriers if he hadn’t turned around. Whatever few torpedoes the taffies may have coincidentally had laying around to load Avengers with, you can be sure they had NO MORE or else they wouldn’t have flown with depth charges or nothing but their machine guns.
Now does it make a difference that Kurita didn’t know this? You see, he thought the same damage he was taking would continue, when it most certainly wouldn’t have. The Taffies shot their wad. Kurita gave up not knowing that.
And if Kurita had decided to hang around and called in air strikes to assist him, as was the plan? But I’m sure that somehow weakens Kurita, so that the Taffies wind up the winners here.
The ammunition you count after the fact doesn’t change the fact that Oldendorf still reported to Halsey he was low on ammunition. Now, if this is a mistake, it may be that Oldendorf’s sailors would have corrected it when engaging Kurita, but, maybe not. Whatever reasons Oldendorf had for thinking he was out of ammunition may have continued through the battle, or maybe they’d have discovered ammunition if indeed there’s a mistake. nevertheless, the confusion during the heat of battle is a much different than a leisurely accounting afterwards. the effect of ammunition you don’t know you have is exactly the same as no ammunition.
No matter how much you argue, I will never agree that no planes=planes with fucked up command.
Sounds like you have read one book and one book alone and are utterly unaware that a large number of sources vary on the details of what happened at Leyte Gulf. I’ve read more than a half-dozen accounts.
Go back and read the links I provided. It’s NOT “my opinion” that Kurita turned around because he thought he was about to engage Halsey full-on. It’s a FACT.
Now change that fact to Kurita KNOWING that the Taffies had done all they could do, and even though he has had SOME losses (Yes, losing three cruisers but leaving five cruisers and four battleships is “SOME losses”) he will look and say, “even though I have lost three cruisers, I still have five cruisers and four battleships.” ESPECIALLY considering the IJN had given him orders for a do-or-die, last-chance, this-is-it, no-point-in-even-having-a-navy-if-we-lose mission.
Or perhaps you don’t know much about Leyte Gulf, either.
Watching you be proven wrong over and over on multiple points is pretty convincing. But by all means, keep plugging away. When you’re in a hole the best thing to do is dig with all your might.
Conversations?
There hasn’t been jack here to prove that Kurita didn’t turn around because he thought he was looking at Halsey instead of the jeep carriers. The idea that losing three cruisers out of 8 and having all 4 batleships intact is anything more than moderate losses, with a more than adequate amount of firepower remaining–Kurita still had more than he had lost.
There hasn’t been jack here to prove that Kurita couldn’t have prevailed over the Taffies. With what little appropriate ordnance they had gone, unarmored jeep carriers don’t stand a chance against the lieks of Yamato. The proof that there were a few torpedoes somehow gets transformed into capital ships full of torpedoes in your mind.
Why would Sprague beg Halsey for help if the 16 Taffy carriers were the right weapon against Kurita? WTF? Halsey only had twelve carriers. (Note, Sprague did not beg Oldendorf for help. Why does a guy with 16 carriers call for help from a guy with only 12?
There hasn’t been jack here to prove that Oldendorf would have beaten Kurita.
As I pointed out, unknown ammunition doesn’t get fired, either. it’s nothing but speculation that the problem would have been figured out. And no-one explains how three battleships that can’t hit targets contribute to his “overwhelming” forces, and no discussion of just how much it takes to sink a Yamato class ship, other than some manipulative labeling such as “Yamato envy.”
Sounds like we need a TARDIS!
You clearly can’t read. I suggest you read the part you reponded to, slowly this time if you need to. Suzuya and Chikuma were sunk by air attack, and air attack contributed to the sinking of Chokai. I don’t know how you can have missed that fact, I even bolded the relevant parts for you.
This is simply beyond stupid and you are clearly debating in bad faith. They didn’t have an odd torpedo or two; they scored numerous torpedo hits. That you can read of repeated torpedo runs by TBM Avengers from the escort carriers and still insist that plane from the escort carriers weren’t armed for anti-ship action, didn’t have the right ordnance and say they didn’t sink heavy cruisers with the words right there in black and white in front of you is demonstably debating in bad faith.
It’s obvious to anyone reading what you’ve written that you are seeking to rewrite what you actually said, which was that they had no torpedoes, ineffective bombs and some had only depth charges or even just machine guns. You clearly have little understanding of naval combat in WW2. Pay particular attention to the Suzuya on your re-read and notice that she was crippled not by penetrating bomb hits or torpedoes, she was crippled by near misses from bombs. Bombs that didn’t even hit her, much less penetrate her deck. Chokai had her machine room destroyed and had uncontrollable fires started by one bomb hit. You may also want to look at the fate of the battleship Hiei in 1942 off of Guadalcanal, where she was left badly flooded, aflame, barely able to keep moving and only able to steam in slow circles as she had lost rudder control while in action with US cruisers and destroyers despite none of the American ships having AP shells that were remotely close to being able to penetrate her main belt.
This again is flatly entirely false. How you are able to change three battleships getting effective fire control solutions at night from radar to be able to pummel the Yamashiro and Mogami with complete impunity while three had trouble getting a proper solution from radar alone before the fight was over into Oldendorf only having three effective battleships is beyond any reason. The Yamashiro was unable to even return fire. How you imagine Oldendorf was unaware of his own ammunition situation and it was only discovered later by accountants that shells wieghing close to a ton each had been hiding is simply bizarre.
Clearly, you aren’t even reading or are unable to understand your own cites. Again, it’s flat out amazing that you’re trying to use the vastly superior radar direction on Oldendorf’s ships compared to the gunnery direction on Japanese battleships and call it a negative. Yamashiro was unable to even reply to the avalanche of shells coming from Oldendorf’s battleline.
Simply assume I’m staring blankly in response to this. It’s simply so absurd there isn’t a proper response.
I guess you missed the part where it was also asked about planes, but none in the air. In any event, how an aircraft carrier letting a battleship within 20,000 yards of it with no embarked air group doesn’t qualify as fucked up aircraft command on the part of the carrier is beyond me.
Non sequitor. You’ve also provided no cites other than Wiki, and have apparently not even read them very well as they contradict your claims, not back them up. That you try to dismiss S. E. Morison as one book is very indicative of your understanding of the subject matter as well. For the record I’ve read enough books on the Pacific theatre in WW2 to make baby Jesus cry. Here’s a link for you on who S. E. Morison was:
The fifteen volumes are the quasi-official history of the US Navy in WW2, analogous to the US Army Historical Division’s ‘Green Books.’
The irony, it burns.
You’re getting close to the point of not even attempting to reason.
I cited to Halsey’s article. Halsey says Oldendorf had reported he was low on ammunition. You say I have only cited wikipedia, then say I did not read the article, even though you dismiss the article when it says that Kurita turned around because he thought the Taffies were instead Halsey.
You don’t address my cites; why should I go on finding others when you don’t even appear to see them? OTHER BOOKS say the torpedoes Kurita faced were launched by the destroyers.
Address WIkipedia’s claim, address Halsey’s claim, and above all, stop impugning my motives as bad faith, which is coming awful close to calling me a liar, and I may give you a cite. But not when you dismiss the other cites I give without discussion and without addressing why these sources contradict you.
Why did Halsey say that Oldendorf reported being low on ammunition? And why is Morison in a better position than Halsey to know what Oldendorf thought? And why, after two days of shelling the beaches and then a fire fight with the southern force, wouldn’t Oldendorf think he might be getting low?
I mean you are touting Morison as an insider and dismissing Halsey. DId Halsey recieve the message that Oldendorf was low on ammunition, or not, and if he didn’t, why did he say he did?
Well, I have cited two sources that contradict you, and you just stick to Morison. Cite another source that Kurita didn’t make the mistake of thinking the Taffies were Halsey and that Oldendorf didn’t think he was low on ammunition.
And explain why Sprague sent the calls to Halsey for help instead of “No problem, we got this,” like you seem to want to claim. Why did the guy with 16 “anti-ship” carriers call on the guy with 12 carriers so desperately? Because he thought Task Force 34 was nearby? Why was Task Force 34 supposed to be nearby in Kinkaid’s thinking? Surely not to guard these 16 aircraft carriers so effective on an antiship mission; I mean, you have the guards being less powerful than the guarded, here.
I will toelrate no further abuse here along the lines of “arguing in bad faith.” Address my points.
This thread was light and amusing. Now it’s dark and mean.
An aircraft carrier without aircraft isn’t going to be good for much, but with the aircraft, the carrier is a devastating weapon. For a battleship to be effective, it has to be close enough to a target to hit it with shells, whereas an aircraft carrier can be miles and miles away and deal its damage through its planes. With the advent of anti-ship missiles the battleship is also much more vulnerable than before as well.