# Battlestar Galactica 2.17 — "The Captain's Hand" (spoilons) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007 "2006-02-17T21:33:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/81 "2006-02-22T02:04:02Z")
One note, one question. First of all, no podcast for this episode. Moore had some technical difficulties that kept him from doing it ‘in time for broadcast’. Seeing as how it’s now Tuesday and it’s still not up, I’m giving up hope. And now the question…the watch? Was there some importance to it that I missed somehow? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/82 "2006-02-22T07:10:48Z")
The BSG structure is a hodge-podge of Navy and Marine ranks. There are no Marine officers on board. If there were, they wouldn’t be serving as line officers on a ship. They’d be commanding the marine units. The only possible place for a marine as a line-officer in a Navy organization would involve a marine pilot serving in a carrier aviation wing, and even there, the ship and avaiation groups have separate command lines, with the XO commanding the ship peope, the CAG commanding the aviation people, and both reporting the ship’s CO. In this regard, the show departs once again from traditional rank strucuture in that the CAG and XO should be roughly equal in rank: a full aviation wing should have a Colonel as CAG, or at least a Major. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/83 "2006-02-22T13:40:17Z")
Perhaps Lee’s promotion to Commander is an ‘honorary’ or ‘pro forma’ rank, in that a ship cannot be commanded by a person of less than commander status. So Lee could still be a Major (or be ‘really’ promoted to Colonel), but called Commander since he is in charge of the Pegasus. I seem to have a hazy recollection from the Patrick O’Brien naval books that a lower-ranking naval officer (eg Lt.) could be called Commander, but only when he was actually in command of a ship; on land he would revert to the lower rank. Does this make sense? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/84 "2006-02-22T13:49:47Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > Perhaps Lee’s promotion to Commander is an ‘honorary’ or ‘pro forma’ rank, in that a ship cannot be commanded by a person of less than commander status. I don’t think so. They are just running out of guys to promote. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/85 "2006-02-22T13:59:22Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And now the question…the watch? Was there some importance to it that I missed somehow? In a Season 1 episode, Apollo flew a mission that Starbuck normally would have )except she was still rehabbing her knee after that crash landing). Papa Adama gave him the watch, explaining that _his_ papa, apparently also a fighter pilot, had given it to him as a good-luck charm in the last war, and it had always worked for him. Apollo naturally succeeded, and held up the watch to show his father when he returned. I was just about to say that the rank structure of the Fleet of the 12 Colonies of Kobol is not necessarily the same as the US Navy’s anyway, except that the redshirts have been explicitly called “Marines”. But sorting it out is hardly a priority, of course, given the situation and given the shallowness of the talent pool. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/86 "2006-02-22T16:01:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Apollo naturally succeeded, and held up the watch to show his father when he returned. Actually, Adama gave his son a lighter engraved with the family name in “Hand of God,” not a watch. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/87 "2006-02-22T16:06:43Z")
Damn. I’m getting forgetful in my old age. So yeah, what was with the watch? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/88 "2006-02-22T16:12:24Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > engraved with the family name in “Hand of God,” Not “Hands of the gods” or “Hand of a particular god”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/89 "2006-02-22T16:51:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Not “Hands of the gods” or “Hand of a particular god”? 🙂 Well, that episode was more about Baltar/Six… Six told Baltar that he was “God’s servant” or something to that affect… .and that ‘God’ would show him… Baltar was able to point out where to attack the refinery, even though he had no prior knowledge… torward the end of the episode he accepted his position as “God’s Hand”. It was a lighter in that episode. The watch in this episode was the Comanders… He gave it to Lee when he gave Lee command and ran off to turn the valve things that no one else in the ship could turn. It held signifigance to him, and I suppose it now does to Lee. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/90 "2006-02-22T18:12:35Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Well, that episode was more about Baltar/Six… Six told Baltar that he was “God’s servant” The Cylons are monotheists, but the colonists are polytheists. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/91 "2006-02-22T18:18:16Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The watch in this episode was the Comanders… He gave it to Lee when he gave Lee command and ran off to turn the valve things that no one else in the ship could turn. It held signifigance to him, and I suppose it now does to Lee. I wondered what the significance was too. What I decided is the watch symbolized the exacting, clockwork precision of the engineering section, vs. the wild, rock 'em sock 'em fighter pilot attitude. That turned out to be the important difference in their leadership styles. Plus the watch was broken, which probably symbolized some silly thing or other. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/92 "2006-02-22T18:41:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The Cylons are monotheists, but the colonists are polytheists. Yeah, and? The title was “Hand of God”… in it, Baltar becomes convinced that he is the “hand of God”… In whatever twisted way, he was serving the Cylon God. (Or atleast that is what he is led to believe via six-chip…) The lighter had nothing to do with it, other than a father telling the son to return… It’s a _good_ lighter. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/93 "2006-02-22T18:44:53Z")
Another point is this is the episode where six is doing the most work to _prove_ to Baltar that the Cylon God exists… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/94 "2006-02-22T19:51:44Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The lighter had nothing to do with it, My mistake. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/95 "2006-02-22T23:08:57Z")
Well they are in a war, and in war, promotions are different. The concept of _Brevet Rank_ is an old one, where one’s working rank depends on the job, and one’s permanent rank is a different matter. Even so, brevet rank is not honorary, it is real until reversion to permanent rank. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/96 "2006-02-23T03:42:45Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Well they are in a war, and in war, promotions are different. The concept of _Brevet Rank_ is an old one, where one’s working rank depends on the job, and one’s permanent rank is a different matter. > > Even so, brevet rank is not honorary, it is real until reversion to permanent rank. Sure, but do they typically bother making/providing maple leafs and the like? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/97 "2006-02-23T04:02:50Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Even so, brevet rank is not honorary, it is real until reversion to permanent rank. Which happens, when, they discover fifteen other battlestars, return to the colonies and kick Cylon butt? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/98 "2006-02-23T14:44:09Z")
Reversion of rank typically occurs when forces _downsize_. As a real example, many US officers breveted up multiple ranks during war time in WWI and WWII, then reverted after the war as the wartime forces scaled back. As for titles, insignia, pay and such, brevet rank is real, as real as the permanent kind, while you have it. Operationally, a brevet colonel is the same as a permanent colonel. Though I must say that the BSG insignia is even harder to visually decipher than the old Bablyon 5 ranks. Just a bunch of damned diamond thingies. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/99 "2006-02-23T16:55:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Which happens, when, they discover fifteen other battlestars, return to the colonies and kick Cylon butt? 🙂 I doubt even fifteen would do it. In the miniseries they mention thirty battlestars lost early in the fighting and indicate that’s “over a quarter of the fleet.” Meaning at full strength they had maybe 100-120. Even with all their advantages in penetrating the security network, I doubt the Cylons would have risked attacking with less than at least, say, half of that to account for failures in their plan. Probably significantly more. So Earth better have 50 good battlestars ready to loan them if any kind of counterattack is going to be contemplated :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007/100 "2006-02-23T17:59:23Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So Earth better have 50 good battlestars ready to loan them if any kind of counterattack is going to be contemplated :). > > - Tamerlane Sounds like they’d better find Captain Kirk and rip his shirt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-2-17-the-captains-hand-spoilons/345007.md?page=6)