# Battlestar Galactica 4.13 - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (spoilers aplenty) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601 "2009-01-16T15:28:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/201 "2009-01-20T16:55:41Z")
[speculation] 3600 Years Ago 13 Colonies Split - Likely Cause #13 was working on Regeneration/Resurection technology This work “angered” the gods… 2000 Years ago - 13th Colony implodes - finished 1st step of regen/resurection technology… 1st step required “embyronic” host to take (“we will be reborn”) 12 ‘Archetypes’ were chosen and sent toward the 12 colonies (“Everythings in place”) 60 Years ago - The ‘Archetypes’ arrive, Some begin work on the next step (Being resurected to an adult host), Some do not. Tigh and Ellen are two that did not join with the other 12 - for unknown reasons - perhaps they just took advantage of the technology, but werent part of the creators of it. Since the 1st stage required Embryonic hosts, none of these 12 would appear any different, would have had natural families, friends and ties that existed for a long time. 30-45 Years ago - The first Cylon war broke out, 7 of the Archetypes found each other and began stage 2 - Resurection to an ‘adult’ host and ‘mass cloning’, keeping/sharing current experiences. For some reason, Tyrol, Anders and Tory are reborn as infants (or maybe they arrived late to the party). Stage 3 of the project was attempting to make the new clones self propagating. It appears that the original (stage 1) re-birthed have the ability, some do not. Stage 2 resurections require a ‘human’ donation. 3 Years ago - the current Cylon war broke out. What about Starbuck? The 'explosion" that Lee witnessed was part explosion and part FTL jump straight to earth. There is still an unknown ‘player’ in this game that instigated her resurection (stage 2) and gave her the new ship. Starbuck is actually the child of Tigh and Ellen - during one of there ‘off again’ times, Ellen kept the birth a secret and gave the baby up for adoption. If there is a 13th archetype, Starbuck could also be it, arriving at more/less the same time as the Tyrol, Anders and Tory. ‘Cylons’ are truly those that have been ‘reborn’, they appear to have kept whatever evolutionary differences that were present 2000 years ago. Stage 2 Cylons have some ‘mechanical’ enhancements. The ‘Humans’ of the 12 Colonies are just the evolutionary next step. The ‘Mechanical’ cylons are just that - robots. - During the runup of stage 2, they found a way to graft software with the hardware to make a better soldier. [/speculation] ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/202 "2009-01-20T17:11:15Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Here’s a wild theory, what if the Final Five really are humans just like the Earthlings. The difference between Earthlings and Colonials being that Earthlings possess an immortal soul while Colonials do not. The other seven Cylons’ downloading abilites are an attempt to duplicate reincarnation with technology. This has some strange implications. The Colonials, lacking souls, don’t have an afterlife, while the Five and the people of Earth (eg us) do. The fallen Lord of Kobol really is Yahweh and he granted his followers eternal life while the Lords of Kobol are the false gods. Baltar really is a prophet and his Six is an angel (or god himself). The Colonials will embrace Cylonism. I think that much metaphysical differentiation between humans and Cylons is completely opposite to the direction this series has been headed from the start. The entire point of all the developments about what we’ve learned about the Cylon skinjobs is that – despite what both sides think – the humans and Cylons are basically the same. In the way they think, behave, love and hate, and particularly in their religions. > [@simster](#): > > [speculation] > 3600 Years Ago > 13 Colonies Split - > Likely Cause #13 was working on Regeneration/Resurection technology > > This work “angered” the gods… > 2000 Years ago - > 13th Colony implodes - finished 1st step of regen/resurection technology… > 1st step required “embyronic” host to take (“we will be reborn”) > > 12 ‘Archetypes’ were chosen and sent toward the 12 colonies (“Everythings in place”) > > … I believe that the Twelve Colonies were also founded 2000 years ago, when Kobol was abandoned. I _think_ that means that the war of the gods on Kobol coincided with the nuking of Earth from what we know. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/203 "2009-01-20T17:29:08Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I think that much metaphysical differentiation between humans and Cylons is completely opposite to the direction this series has been headed from the start. > > The entire point of all the developments about what we’ve learned about the Cylon skinjobs is that – despite what both sides think – the humans and Cylons are basically the same. In the way they think, behave, love and hate, and particularly in their religions. > > I believe that the Twelve Colonies were also founded 2000 years ago, when Kobol was abandoned. I _think_ that means that the war of the gods on Kobol coincided with the nuking of Earth from what we know. I was under the impression that the “war of the gods” on Kobol happened closer to 3600 yrs ago. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/204 "2009-01-20T21:19:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I was under the impression that the “war of the gods” on Kobol happened closer to 3600 yrs ago. That was when Pythia wrote her prophecies. The twelve tribes leave Kobol to found the Colonies, Athena kills herself, and Earth is nuked all ~2000 years ago. See [here](http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)) for a summary. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/205 "2009-01-20T21:28:01Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > That was when Pythia wrote her prophecies. > > The twelve tribes leave Kobol to found the Colonies, Athena kills herself, and Earth is nuked all ~2000 years ago. > > See [here](http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)) for a summary. Athena was a goddess of war. I’m putting pretty good money that Starbuck is a reborn Athena. She’s #13. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/206 "2009-01-20T22:36:07Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Athena was a goddess of war. I’m putting pretty good money that Starbuck is a reborn Athena. She’s #13. That’s an interesting idea. I’d never heard of the goddess Athena being referred to as the harbinger of death, but a little googling seems to indicate her familiar, the Owl, was a symbol of coming death and resurrection. Still doesn’t explain the crashed viper and dogtags, but maybe there will be more next week. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/207 "2009-01-21T01:42:49Z")
Umm…that’s from LAST time, and she’s just been decomposing really slowly over the last 2000 years? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/208 "2009-01-21T03:35:35Z")
Well, she is the best in the fleet at resisting decay, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Kylede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kylede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kylede)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/209 "2009-01-21T15:30:47Z")
[quote=“Max\_the\_Immortal, post:75, topic:481601”] I had already had the impression that Ellen Tigh could have been a long-lived Six, what with Saul’s hallucinations and his _ahem_ compatibility with that one Six. I assume that skin-jobs age, or else Adama would have noticed Saul never aging. [QUOTE] Rigth there is the answer… Lets go back to Season One, on Caprica. The six in the white dress who kept meeting with Sharon(Athena) said she had to make Helo fall in love with her. They believed LOVE was what was missing in creating life. We have seen all osrts of sex between SkinJObs and Humans, but only 3 pregnancies. Helo and Athena - We can all agree they are in love Tyrol and Callie - I think some of their scenes from the webisodes showed us the depth of there love. Saul and “Six” captured with Baltar on the Algae Planet - How do we know they are in love??? Maybe, just maybe when Ellen died on New Caprica, she somehow downloaded into Six body on a resurection Ship??? That way Saul and the Six are actually Saul and Ellen. True love brings us a 3rd baby, and it is the first between 2 Cylons. Just throwing out on the stoop and seeing if the cat licks it up… ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/210 "2009-01-21T17:10:44Z")
Man, I wish those glowing spines had never come up. It really throws a cog in much of this “Are humans really Cylons?” debate. However, all the interviews I’ve seen basically said, “Uh, yeah, about that… never mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/211 "2009-01-21T17:31:08Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Athena was a goddess of war. I’m putting pretty good money that Starbuck is a reborn Athena. She’s #13. > > -Joe Are the Lords of Kobol Cylons? I don’t see why, if Starbuck is Athena or some other LoK, why she would also have to be a Cylon or #13. In fact, unless the message is going to be that we’re all Cylons somehow, I hope she isn’t… though clearly, she’s something. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/212 "2009-01-21T18:44:16Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > Man, I wish those glowing spines had never come up. It really throws a cog in much of this “Are humans really Cylons?” debate. However, all the interviews I’ve seen basically said, “Uh, yeah, about that… never mind.” Exactly. Just pretend they didn’t do that. I’d forgotten about it until my wife and I re-watched the whole series. ---
**Author:** ![melodyharmonius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/melodyharmonius/32/21310_2.png) [@melodyharmonius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/melodyharmonius)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/213 "2009-01-21T20:11:10Z")
I did a google on “Harbinger of Death” and there was some interesting stuff that came up about Irish and Welsh folklore on it and banshees. I especially liked [this article](http://ezinearticles.com/?Wail-of-the-Banshee---Harbinger-of-Death-in-Irish-Folklore&id=812377), where it talks about Harbinger’s attaching themselves to a mortal family (like the Adamas) and following them anywhere they travel, even across the ocean. It also says that Harbingers are thought to be ghosts, often murdered or killed in childbirth. When the Hybrid told Starbuck she was a “Harbinger of Death” - it was after Starbuck miraculously returned. It could be the Hybrid’s way of saying “you are dead.” That is, if the writers are using the Irish folklore for inspiration. I don’t know that they are - this is just me stream of consciousness-ing. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/214 "2009-01-21T22:09:04Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’d forgotten about it until my wife and I re-watched the whole series. How could you forget the Glowing Spine of Passion? GSP ™ ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/215 "2009-01-21T23:17:02Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Exactly. Just pretend they didn’t do that. I’d forgotten about it until my wife and I re-watched the whole series. Hard to forget it when they used an image of what appeared to be Six’s fetus with a glowing spine in that list of clues they were using to promote the show. ---
**Author:** ![melodyharmonius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/melodyharmonius/32/21310_2.png) [@melodyharmonius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/melodyharmonius)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/216 "2009-01-22T02:40:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Hard to forget it when they used an image of what appeared to be Six’s fetus with a glowing spine in that list of clues they were using to promote the show. i missed that part. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/217 "2009-01-22T15:49:18Z")
I’m not sure it’s fair to consider the drooling babblers in the marketing department producers of canon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/218 "2009-01-22T18:01:41Z")
Given how fast & loose they’ve played with science & physics so far, is there any consideration that Kara went through some sort of time warp, traveled back 2,000 years, flew through somebody’s airspace and triggered a nuclear holocaust before she was shot down? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/219 "2009-01-22T18:05:27Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Given how fast & loose they’ve played with science & physics so far, is there any consideration that Kara went through some sort of time warp, traveled back 2,000 years, flew through somebody’s airspace and triggered a nuclear holocaust before she was shot down? I don’t think her Colonial beacon, her remains, or the remains of her ship would be around after 2,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/220 "2009-01-22T18:07:44Z")
Can you explain “fast & loose,” **Ethilrist**? Aside from the plot-required existence of FTL and the vagueness of how a “jump” works, I think they’ve done a pretty good job of avoiding a lot of the pitfalls sci-fi shows usually fall victim to with real science. I’m curious what you’ve seen I’ve oblivved on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601.md?page=12)