# Battlestar Galactica 4.13 - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (spoilers aplenty) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 16, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601 "2009-01-16T15:28:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/141 "2009-01-18T17:58:23Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Nah… the initial 7 don’t run the ships; the hybrids do. You don’t see a bunch of Cavils going around running network cable or spackling over battle damage. In episode 4.1, #6 said that they were “programmed not to think” about the final 5. So the extra bodies could easily be stashed in a storage closet labeled “PARTS”, guarded with an encrypted security badge, and nobody would be the wiser. Eh? We don’t see Hybrids going around running cable, either. In fact, we don’t see Hybrids going around _anywhere_, since we’ve seen that if they unplug from their vat, they go catatonic. They’re not running the rez ships. They’re hardware. _Possibly_ the Centurions are – but we’d have to assume it was Centurions that were secretly still sentient, since we know that the skinjob models installed a dumb chip into them all. However, what we have actually seen is that it is the skinjob models who handle the resurrections. When Boomer is ressurected, there is a D’Anna and a Six to help her. When D’Anna is boxed, it is Cavil there doing it to her. The skinjobs are the ones we have seen running the rez ship. And we have seen inside the rez ship, and seen that they have bodies in storage there for them. If the Final Five resurrect through the Hub and rez ship system, _someone_ could’ve seen what they look like – especially since, as **Merijeek** , D’Anna was willfully defying her programming to actively seek out what the Final Five looked like. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/142 "2009-01-18T18:01:23Z")
I’m a little concerned that the fleet is leaving earth, since something on or around earth has got some pretty advanced FTL and resurrection technology. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/143 "2009-01-18T18:10:15Z")
There will be 2 completely different types of hubs, one for the new 7 and one for the original 5. Based on the virus that only affected the new 7 we can tell that the technology is different in the models. So one type of hub is only compatible with Cylon PC while the other type is only compatible with Cylon Mac. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/144 "2009-01-18T18:12:51Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Yeah, could have done a bit better than that. Fabulous 5? Furious 5? MC5? 🙂 I’ve always liked _The Others_. If Ben, Jacob, etc. from **Lost** were actually Cylons, that show would make a whole lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/145 "2009-01-18T21:01:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Eh? We don’t see Hybrids going around running cable, either. In fact, we don’t see Hybrids going around _anywhere_, since we’ve seen that if they unplug from their vat, they go catatonic. They’re not running the rez ships. They’re hardware. That is demonstrably false. In any episode that features a (modern) hybrid, in their continuous babbling you can clearly hear them monitoring and controlling all the operating parameters of the ship. The hybrid runs the ship. In fact, it’s not really even clear that the skinjobs have a hand in tactical or physical operations at all. All we ever see them doing is making political decisions and acting as spies and _agents provocateurs_. It’s true they do seem to control strategic direction but I never saw any Cylon issue the hybrid a command that was obeyed. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/146 "2009-01-18T21:08:32Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > That is demonstrably false. In any episode that features a (modern) hybrid, in their continuous babbling you can clearly hear them monitoring and controlling all the operating parameters of the ship. The hybrid runs the ship. In fact, it’s not really even clear that the skinjobs have a hand in tactical or physical operations at all. All we ever see them doing is making political decisions and acting as spies and _agents provocateurs_. It’s true they do seem to control strategic direction but I never saw any Cylon issue the hybrid a command that was obeyed. So? If the Final Five are involved in ANY way with “regular” Cylon society, at some point someone is going to see a naked Tigh wandering through the ship and trying to find the liquor cabinet. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/147 "2009-01-18T21:15:45Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > That is demonstrably false. In any episode that features a (modern) hybrid, in their continuous babbling you can clearly hear them monitoring and controlling all the operating parameters of the ship. The hybrid runs the ship. In fact, it’s not really even clear that the skinjobs have a hand in tactical or physical operations at all. All we ever see them doing is making political decisions and acting as spies and _agents provocateurs_. It’s true they do seem to control strategic direction but I never saw any Cylon issue the hybrid a command that was obeyed. Incorrect. They’re the _hardware_. They direct the jumps, probably keep the lights pulsing, and perform the maintenance tasks. We’ve seen one hybrid jump a basestar without command, but the skinjobs can demonstratably disconnect them, and are obviously the ones in control. What do you think they are doing when they’re standing in the “bridge” with their hands in the water with the pretty lights? They’re directing operations. Tellingly, we’ve only seen one hybrid actually _act_ – the one who jumped her basestar when reconnected. We’ve never seen any of the hybrids actually DO anything, aside from that instance. And once the skinjobs got the hybrid calmed down, they jumped the basestar back to where _they_ wanted it. The skinjobs don’t even view the hybrids as _persons_ (other than Leoben, maybe). The skinjobs went to the trouble of lobotomizing the centurions so they’d be in control; that they did not do the same to the hybrids shows that they did not feel threatened likewise by them. Yes, the hybrid runs the ship. Much like any computer system would. They’re the basestar’s OS, not the Cylon masterminds. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/148 "2009-01-18T21:31:22Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The skinjobs went to the trouble of lobotomizing the centurions so they’d be in control; that they did not do the same to the hybrids shows that they did not feel threatened likewise by them. I think that demonstrates more that there’s no operable ship without the hybrid. The hybrid may not be the overall commander of the basestar but I think it has not been demonstrated at all that it is simply a passive mindless servant. > [@](#): > > Yes, the hybrid runs the ship. Much like any computer system would. They’re the basestar’s OS, not the Cylon masterminds. I’m not arguing that the hybrid is the Cylon mastermind; I’m just arguing that parts of Cylon operations seem to be highly compartmentalized and autonomous, and that the hybrid has shown enough awareness and autonomy to act on its own conceal something from other Cylons, whether through its own intentions or via external programming from some other source. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/149 "2009-01-19T01:00:07Z")
Here’s a thought on the overall logic: What Ellen Tigh means when she says that it’s all in place and “we will be reborn” is that Cylons are essentially a production of the 13th colony, who took 2000 years to find the other twelve tribes, at which point they infiltrated them and directed the production of the next generation of Cylons (who revolted, first war, peace period, annihilation of the twelve colonies, etc.) who would then resurrect the 13th colony–perhaps as rulers, whatever. In other words, Cylons as currently known are the culmination of the rebirth plan that was started 2000 years earlier on Earth, when there was some breakthrough in medical technology at a time of actual or impending war. It’s not the the earth skeletons are cylons, it’s that cylons are descended from a genetically distinct 13th colony that had figured out cyborgs, etc. and set in motion a plan to survive a nuclear war. Crazy? Holes in plot logic? ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/150 "2009-01-19T01:52:15Z")
> [@miamouse](#): > > on edit: why was the body burned, but not the hair? It never pays to be too logical with these sorts of things. If the hair had not been visibly blond, we would not have known that it was – or at least was supposed to be – Starbuck. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/151 "2009-01-19T02:21:33Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > It never pays to be too logical with these sorts of things. If the hair had not been visibly blond, we would not have known that it was – or at least was supposed to be – Starbuck. You’re probably right, but I think the dog tags probably would have pegged it, with or without the hair. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/152 "2009-01-19T02:27:44Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m gonna have to jump on the overly dramatic Adama bandwagon. When he and lee are standing over Dee’s corpse, Lee asks “Why?” and Adama responds with “I don’t have a frakkin clue” (or something similar), the offers a bottle…that seems wildly out of character. I was expecting some solemn advice, support…pretty much anything other than…“That sucks. Wanna get drunk?” I once had a boss who was easily one of the wisest, kindest, wittiest people I’d ever known. He was our rock. It was an honor to know him, and I’ll never forget him. A couple of years in, the division we worked for was facing 3-4 _years_ of backlog on installing our systems at customer sites, and they were extremely angry at the delays. The pressure was something awful, and so management decided to do a canoeing weekend to blow off steam and have some fun. In the Friday evening after the first day on the river, everyone got drunk and/or high and really let loose. All except for my boss, the rock. He made sure everyone else was having fun, and, although sober, he was having as much fun as the rest of us. On Saturday, though, a co-worker fell out of her canoe at a bad spot and she broke her leg and almost drowned. There was much stress and concern. After that, the rock who was our boss couldn’t resist a drink. Then another. Then more and more and more. He was then converted into the _ **most offensive fucking asshole anyone had ever seen!** _ A monster douchebag unlike anyone’s ever imagined before or since. He had most of the women crying and not a few of the men planning to lynch him right then and there. **What a prick!** Conclusion: You never know what an excess of drink can do to any given person under stress, not even a rock like Adama. I believed Olmos utterly and without hesitation. He got it exactly right. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/153 "2009-01-19T03:40:39Z")
I just can’t see much, if any, good dramatic sense of Ellen as the final Cylon. She’s one of the least significant characters in the entire series. A throw-away. Just another red shirt. Did they pick her name out of a hat or something? As I read the Chicago Tribune interview with Moore linked to above, it seems to me that’s fairly close to what actually happened. When the story’s main creator was asked “Why Ellen?”, he replied: > [@Ronald Moore](#): > > It was somewhere in the course of the third season [that the possibility was first raised.] **We killed Ellen early that season and we didn’t have an inkling of that at that point.** But at the point that we killed Ellen, around the same time frame, I was starting to come up with the idea that there were five Cylons that had yet to be revealed. As I read that, Moore’s saying it was pretty much a random choice, and his description of the decision very much strikes me as sloppy, _ad hoc_ rationalization. If she had never been in the story at all, nothing of significance would have changed. Had the final Cylon been Boxey, as some have joked, it would make precisely as much dramatic and logical sense. I also find that I’m extremely disappointed upon learning that, based on Moore’s and others’ comments, very little of this whole story was planned and written from the beginning. With that lack of foresight in mind, the series now seems more like a Gygaxian role-playing game whose outcomes depend on rolling dice than an inspired and thoughtful work of art. The choice strikes me as the least dramatic, least appealing, and least rewarding story arcs in the entire formerly-brilliant series. The rest of the episodes do not look promising now that Ellen has been revealed as the final Cylon (along with the rest of the mostly unimpressive episode). The reveal of the last of the twelve should have been riveting and provocative and should of left us breathless. Instead, it left me angrily wondering: WTF? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/154 "2009-01-19T03:48:34Z")
Yeah, but Boxey may well still be the “secret sixth” ! ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/155 "2009-01-19T03:50:18Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Y’all remember my plan to melt these damn DVDs I made down, crucify Ron Moore upside down and pour them down his nostrils? Hey, can I get in on that? Let’s make it an event: **BSG Demolition Night!** Too bad we can’t use Comiskey Park… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/156 "2009-01-19T04:27:53Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > The rest of the episodes do not look promising now that Ellen has been revealed as the final Cylon (along with the rest of the mostly unimpressive episode). The reveal of the last of the twelve should have been riveting and provocative and should of left us breathless. Instead, it left me angrily wondering: > > WTF? I think Ellen is actually quite a solid choice for the final Cylon - among other things, it’s the choice that hurts Tight the most. 🙂 And really, that’s what BSG is all about - people in impossible, unendurable situations, and how they deal with them (or fail to do so). “Sometimes a Great Notion”, in particular, wasn’t about the final Cylon - it was about people losing _everything_, including their last dream of a happy life. This story was told beautifully. Heck, I just watched it for the third time, and I found myself really hoping that Lee wouldn’t let Dee close the hatch. (Admittedly, I need to get out more.) The question of the last Cylon’s identity is an interesting whodunit (whoisit) sort of question, but it’s not the most important in BSG - far from it. Further, I’d suggest that there is real merit in deciding _not_ to script the whole plot from the beginning. Sure, you can do that - Babylon 5 did, for example. But the cost is that you lose the flexibility to develop your characters naturally, as your writers and actors become more familiar with them over the years. Babylon 5 had a fine plot, but I would respectfully submit that its characters tended to lack depth. Which is fine, because B5 wasn’t _about_ its characters - it was about the Big Galactic War (And Its Aftermath). BSG, on the other hand, is much more character-driven. Character-driven stories need flexibility. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/157 "2009-01-19T04:34:48Z")
I see the “Who is the Fifth?” topic as having been just an artificial hook for the cliffhanger that would hold us through the writers’ strike. By getting it out of the way so early and so tidily, the revelation frees Moore and Eick to take the story arc in the direction they intend for the wrapup episodes without that distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Surbey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Surbey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surbey)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/158 "2009-01-19T04:34:57Z")
To be completely fair, I did [suggest](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10650590#post10650590) it a while back that Ellen would be a cylon. Although I was not really confident in it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/159 "2009-01-19T04:48:30Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Hey, can I get in on that? > > Too bad we can’t use Comiskey Park… Yeah, but we gotta catch him first. Maybe we could use Glenlivet and [Black Russians](http://www.smokin4free.com/sobranie.html) as bait. WTF is Comiskey Park? ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601/160 "2009-01-19T05:06:03Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > It never pays to be too logical with these sorts of things. If the hair had not been visibly blond, we would not have known that it was – or at least was supposed to be – Starbuck. I’m not sure the corpse was burned so much as just decomposed. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > WTF is Comiskey Park? [Psst… it’s the home of the Chicago White Sox.](http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/comisk.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/battlestar-galactica-4-13-sometimes-a-great-notion-spoilers-aplenty/481601.md?page=9)