# Bay Area to Bush:Welcome to dinner; now please choke on it.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831 "2006-04-23T04:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/21 "2006-04-23T17:11:06Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t think Bush really has any illusions about his popularity, especially in someplace like the Bay Area. Don’t be too sure of that, considering how detached from reality he is. He doesn’t even watch the news or read newspapers, and surrounds himself with manipulators and true believers; whenever possible, anyone who might protest or disagree is kept away from him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he thinks he’s wildly popular. Hell, he didn’t realize things were bad in New Orleans, until his aides made a DVD of the disaster for him. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/22 "2006-04-23T17:11:33Z")
[http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=20166&repository=0001\_article](http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=20166&repository=0001_article) The road was blocked by protectors. Well before Bush was scheduled, apparently normal traffic was not present or redirected. The police moved them to the side of the street. About three people refused to be moved, were arrested. The road was then, apparently, clear to drive on, but Bush felt it wasn’t the best way to go. You know, I’d call that about normal for a protest, really. Always three or four who take it one step too far. Not like fifty people lying in the street, though, the way the Op suggests. Does this link change anyone’s opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/23 "2006-04-23T17:25:32Z")
The statements that Bush had to change his plans because the roads were blocked appear to be coming from the White House. It appears that only three students were sitting in the road (well before the Bush was due to arrive) and they were arrested. Bush would have had a free path but it would have been lined with protestors. It seems like some people have the idea that the presidential motorcade encountered an impassible mob and had to go somewhere else (which is, of course, exactly what the WH wants you to think). Such was not remotely the case. It was about shielding the monkey from free speech (like it always is) and the WH line that they were “blocked” is is typical obfuscation and spin. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/24 "2006-04-23T17:30:20Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Does this link change anyone’s opinion? Don’t know if this question was directed at me… to me that link (which I read, too) seems to carefully avoid saying they blocked the street. It suggests that the meeting was diverted at an early stage due to the presence of protests. The presidential convoy never attempted to drive to that particular meeting place. The link isn’t really neutral, either. I didn’t find any really neutral accounts of the event. But I certainly don’t automatically believe official accounts from the administration. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/25 "2006-04-23T17:42:51Z")
I was gonna say, if the roads were being blocked, that might be justification for arrests, if for no other reason than it can be a safety hazard. If Grateful Dead fans can’t tie up public access without getting slammed, I see no reason why protesters shouldn’t either. But the facts don’t seem to fit the White House’s accusations. So it’s business as usual. I just can’t summon the outrage anymore; excitotoxicity has taken its toll. Bush prefers his fishbowl, what else is new? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/26 "2006-04-23T17:51:02Z")
It was only 3 people? Then charge them with disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct and let it go at that. Apparently, it’s the White House making a big deal out of it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/27 "2006-04-23T18:53:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The moderator mentions **december** , who was banned for (among other things) allegedly trolling in GD. And compares the OP to the same. The implication seems clear. **december** was banned for posting deliberate lies on more than one occasion for the purpose of stirring up reactions. **december** was never (in my memory) even chastised for posting the sort of extremely provocative OPs of which **alaric** ’s are reminiscent. However, I have notified **alaric** that he will not be allowed to post in this manner in the future, meaning that he is being held to a stricter standard than that accorded to **december** , yet you choose to re-write history simply to lodge one more “oh, the Right is so abused on this board” whine. Every once in a while, we get an OP that has a valid topic that is either couched in inflammatory rhetoric or is susceptible to easy hijacking (see the recent discussion of the origins of the canon of mainstream Christianity vs thatof the LDS). If it appears that the topic is capable of rational and pertinent discussion, regardless of extraneous issues, I will attempt to set guidelines for the participants. No one is compelled to participate against their will and if one needs to excoriate the protestors in the OP or spend the effort to “prove” that the LDS was founded as a fraud, one can always open a new thread (in whatever Forum is appropriate) to have at it. I see no reason to send every volatile thread to the **Pit** and if you think that having a Mod slap the OP’s wrist in the very first response is not sufficient, then you are free to establish your own message board to enforce your rules in the way that they “should” be enforced. If you find **alaric** posting lies to create an issue where one does not exist, please report it so that we may take appropriate action. Failing that, the **Pit** is open for your enjoyment. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/28 "2006-04-23T19:04:38Z")
I remember that. I joined here, the same day I read that december had been banned. It was not a coincidence. december did not belong here. Even as a mere visiting guest I knew that. When he was tossed for outright lying in several instances, I figured the Dope was worth the small membership fee. It can be hard enough to sort things out when people argue honestly. It’s worse when there is a deliberate liar in the mix. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/29 "2006-04-23T19:06:10Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > That was clearly out of bounds to block the public roads, they should have arrested every single one of them. It’s just like Tianmen Square; those students had no right to inconvenience everyone by occupying a major public plaza. By the precious blood of the sweet baby Jesus, have we come to **this**? You compare our constitutional system to the PRC, and recommend a response that mimics tanks rolling over students holding flowers? To (roughly) quote Oliver Cromwell, “Bethink ye, gentlemen, by the bowels of Christ, that you may be in the wrong” **!!** ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/30 "2006-04-23T19:08:29Z")
**alaric** , your irony detector needs adjusting. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/31 "2006-04-23T19:09:34Z")
Alaric… think carefully about that. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/32 "2006-04-23T19:10:30Z")
Yes, the US has mechanisms for public input to changing public policy and so extreme actions at protests are unjustified. However this looks less and less like extreme protest action as more an more is revealed. Our problem is that the President and members of Congress are elected for a fixed term. Irrespective of the loss of public confidence and support for for governmental actions they serve out their terms barring the extreme solution of impeachment or expulsion from one or the other Congressional house. This can be exceedingly frustrating. Especially when we have a President who boasts about not keeping up with the news. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/33 "2006-04-23T19:14:46Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Sure it does. “after students blocked the road leading to Hoover” I am obliged to confess that in posting this item, I was under the misapprehension that the actual tarmac had been filled with courageous bodies…While I am somewhat chagrined to discover my error (I will not deconstruct the origins of that chagrin), I persist in my position that, given his history of self-delusion and general denial, such a blockade would have been appropriate (in the hypothetical universe where, to my evidently fevered perception, it occurred)… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/34 "2006-04-23T19:16:06Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Alaric… think carefully about that. thank goodness!!! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/35 "2006-04-23T19:50:30Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I remember that. I joined here, the same day I read that december had been banned. It was not a coincidence. december did not belong here. Even as a mere visiting guest I knew that. When he was tossed for outright lying in several instances, I figured the Dope was worth the small membership fee. It can be hard enough to sort things out when people argue honestly. It’s worse when there is a deliberate liar in the mix. I assume you are saying that, since the moderator has compared the OP in this case with **december** , it contains a deliberate lie. And that **alaric** does not belong here. Must be this statement that is the lie (at least by **tomndebb** ’s standards - > [@](#): > > I am obliged to confess that in posting this item, I was under the misapprehension that the actual tarmac had been filled with courageous bodies… since the comparison to **december** was made by the same moderator, and **tom** ’s take on the banning was because > [@](#): > > december was banned for posting deliberate lies on more than one occasion for the purpose of stirring up reactions. In other words, **alaric** is posting a deliberate lie (or else the comparison to **december** would not be apt). Which means no more than it always did - rants are fine outside the Pit, provding they are from the approved position that Bush is evil. The rules don’t apply, in other words, just as these kind of statements > [@](#): > > In any case John Mace, no-one supporting the road-blocking denies that they are doing so from partisan interest, nor they deny that such an action is illegal and would be unjustifiable if performed by, say, anti-abortion protesters show what they have always shown. It’s OK if a liberal does it. Liberals are often hypocrites. In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/36 "2006-04-23T19:55:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Hear, hear. > > The moderator mentions **december** , who was banned for (among other things) allegedly trolling in GD. And compares the OP to the same. The implication seems clear. > > And yet the thread remains unlocked, and in GD. Just with a warning that nobody better respond in the spirit in which it was couched. > > OK, I won’t. I **do** wish to point out that in the thread title, with reference to the desired presidential glottal misadventure, I adduced a polite “please”… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/37 "2006-04-23T19:59:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume you are saying that, since the moderator has compared the OP in this case with **december** , it contains a deliberate lie. And that **alaric** does not belong here. > > Must be this statement that is the lie (at least by **tomndebb** ’s standards - since the comparison to **december** was made by the same moderator, and **tom** ’s take on the banning was because In other words, **alaric** is posting a deliberate lie (or else the comparison to **december** would not be apt). > > Which means no more than it always did - rants are fine outside the Pit, provding they are from the approved position that Bush is evil. The rules don’t apply, in other words, just as these kind of statements show what they have always shown. > > It’s OK if a liberal does it. > > Liberals are often hypocrites. In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. > > Regards, > Shodan I wasn’t discussing Bush (this time) except as a very remote peripheral, I was discussing the right to protest vs the laws against obstruction of traffic or the prevention of people to go about their business unhindered. I suppose skirting around (ever so carefully) the rule against insulting someone (me in this case) and twisting your own “reading” of my words and the facts is an IOKIARDI. I guess this includes supporting a liar (december) because he shared whatever “agenda” you support maybe. I will, in the future give your posts all the respect they deserve - none. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/38 "2006-04-23T20:07:39Z")
[http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/the\_valley/14404634.htm](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/the_valley/14404634.htm) herewith the cite from which I culled the (unfortunately) inaccurate description of the event apologies for neglecting to include it in the op, and the subsequent confusion vis-a-vis a)the precise events, b)my impeccable veracity ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/39 "2006-04-23T20:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s OK if a liberal does it. > > Liberals are often hypocrites. In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. No, you’re missing the point of my post. I said that those who would be in favour of the road-blocking (which may not have occured) would support it **because they think any action is justified in opposing Bush**. Extrajudicial action is permitted (even required) because they are acting in pursuit of a moral cause higher than the law of the land. It’s not that they are hypocrites and deny their opponents courses of action that they themselves condone; it’s that they don’t think those actions, when committed in pursuit of an cause which they find morally repugnant (e.g. preventing access to abortion) have the same moral justification. If they did (for example, the Christian human shields in Iraq), then they’d still support those actions. I admit this may seem like splitting hairs, but it is still a valid distinction. Think of it this way: Most people oppose murder. A significant number of people (majority? minority?) support capital punishment. They are not saying that killing is not wrong; what they are saying is that in certain circumstances (the victim committed acts which justify his execution), it can be excused in favour of a greater good (society’s protection, justice etc.). If this greater good is not served (e.g. I want to kill someone who’s face I don’t like) they do not support breaching the rule against killing. “Liberals” oppose breaking the law. A number of them (the students in question, for some) support extraljudicial protest. They are not saying that breaking the law is not wrong; what they are saying is that in certain circumstances (a visit from Bush the war criminal/illegally elected president/poopyhead), it can be excused in favour of a greater good (Bush realises Bay Area students dislike him, resigns, world better place). If this greater good is not served (e.g. fundies want to prevent access to abortion clinic) they do not support breaking the laws against extrajudicial protest. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/40 "2006-04-23T20:18:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume you are saying that, since the moderator has compared the OP in this case with december, it contains a deliberate lie. And that alaric does not belong here. Regardless the interpretation of other posters, my comparison of the OP’s style to that of **december** (and to **Reeder** whom you appear to be disingenuously ignoring) was based on the outrageous nature of the text of the OP and not to the specific events regarding the banning of either individual (lying in the once case and posting dozens of inflammatory OPs _and refusing to engage in discussions_ in the other case). So, basically, you are again simply posting (in the wrong Forum) to whine that the Moderators are not treating “your” people in the way that you pretend that they are treating “other” people. In the same news, **Shodan** is resorting to dishonest whining as usual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831.md?page=3)