# Bay Area to Bush:Welcome to dinner; now please choke on it.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831 "2006-04-23T04:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/41 "2006-04-23T20:26:06Z")
" the outrageous nature of the text of the OP" ok, ok. The part about “servant of Satan” **was** over the top… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/42 "2006-04-23T20:36:35Z")
Not so much over the top, as inaccurate. Satan works for _him_. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/43 "2006-04-23T20:42:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not so much over the top, as inaccurate. Satan works for _him_. well, I glad we got **that** clarified… ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/44 "2006-04-23T20:51:29Z")
Y’Know **alaric** , I half-wondered if you were Muslim when you made th OP. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/45 "2006-04-23T20:59:45Z")
_In the same news, Shodan is resorting to dishonest whining as usual._ The King of the Visigoths is bemused to find himself the object of a moderator’s protection…“The world turned upside down” , as Lord Cornwallis would say… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/46 "2006-04-23T21:02:41Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > Y’Know **alaric** , I half-wondered if you were Muslim when you made th OP. I adhere to the precepts of the Church of the Gnosis of the New Paradigm: Just say no to Yahweh; say yes to Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/47 "2006-04-23T21:44:10Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > The King of the Visigoths is bemused to find himself the object of a moderator’s protection…“The world turned upside down” , as Lord Cornwallis would say… I guess they didn’t know you were liberal before, so they failed to discriminate in your favor. Now that they saw your “secret handshake”, you can do whatever you want! Your key to the secret back room at the _Chicago Reader_ is already in the mail, where we get together every Tuesday and Thursday nights to drink the blood of Republican babies. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/48 "2006-04-23T21:57:58Z")
- they didn’t know you were liberal before\* those would be unusually obtuse mods… (btw–where I come from, “liberal” is an insult, implying moral rot at the core, characterized by temporizing, cowardice, and failure to understand the fundamental dialectic.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/49 "2006-04-23T22:05:36Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > The King of the Visigoths is bemused to find himself the object of a moderator’s protection…“The world turned upside down” , as Lord Cornwallis would say… Not really. **Shodan** is perfectly welcome to demonstrate flaws in your position, logic, or general political posture. Providing an opportunity to discuss an issue–even after a bad start–is not exactly the same thing as an endorsement of a particular position. I would strongly urge you to focus on the actual point under discussion and not take this thread further off the rails. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/50 "2006-04-23T22:13:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not really. **Shodan** is perfectly welcome to demonstrate flaws in your position, logic, or general political posture. > Providing an opportunity to discuss an issue–even after a bad start–is not exactly the same thing as an endorsement of a particular position. > > I would strongly urge you to focus on the actual point under discussion and not take this thread further off the rails. In that spirit, let me turn, albeit untimely, to the equivalence above made between abortion clinic blockaders and the (hypothetical) road blockers who turned out to be a figment of my (fevered) brain. The manifestation of popular indignation in the face of war crimes is not the same as an attempt to force upon an unwilling woman the consummation of an unwanted pregnancy. In the one case, there is no palpable harm to the aggrieved president, other than exposure to general disdain, and the necessity of mustering his cossacks to clear the way. He has within is grasp the immediate remedy to any infringement on his personal liberty. The woman kept from a legal medical procedure does not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/51 "2006-04-23T22:44:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The statements that Bush had to change his plans because the roads were blocked appear to be coming from the White House. It appears that only three students were sitting in the road (well before the Bush was due to arrive) and they were arrested. Bush would have had a free path but it would have been lined with protestors. It seems like some people have the idea that the presidential motorcade encountered an impassible mob and had to go somewhere else (which is, of course, exactly what the WH wants you to think). Such was not remotely the case. It was about shielding the monkey from free speech (like it always is) and the WH line that they were “blocked” is is typical obfuscation and spin. Two things. I also read the Merc article, which left it very unclear as to the how many students were blocking the road. I see nothing in that article to indicate that misinformation was given by the WH. Regardless of whether protestors did or did not block the prez, we have had several (anti-Bush) posters say that it would be OK for the protestors to prevent him from going to a meeting. Not one of those posters has been willing to reply to my questions about other scenarios when citizens or politicians would be be blocked from travel in cases where the politics would be reversed. I’m still waiting to see if any of them grant the same rights to their political opponents as they do to those whose politics align with their own. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/52 "2006-04-23T23:10:23Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > No, you’re missing the point of my post. I said that those who would be in favour of the road-blocking (which may not have occured) would support it because they think any action is justified in opposing Bush. Extrajudicial action is permitted (even required) because they are acting in pursuit of a moral cause higher than the law of the land. It’s not that they are hypocrites and deny their opponents courses of action that they themselves condone; it’s that they don’t think those actions, when committed in pursuit of an cause which they find morally repugnant (e.g. preventing access to abortion) have the same moral justification. If they did (for example, the Christian human shields in Iraq), then they’d still support those actions. I admit this may seem like splitting hairs, but it is still a valid distinction. Think of it this way: > > Most people oppose murder. A significant number of people (majority? minority?) support capital punishment. They are not saying that killing is not wrong; what they are saying is that in certain circumstances (the victim committed acts which justify his execution), it can be excused in favour of a greater good (society’s protection, justice etc.). If this greater good is not served (e.g. I want to kill someone who’s face I don’t like) they do not support breaching the rule against killing. > > “Liberals” oppose breaking the law. A number of them (the students in question, for some) support extraljudicial protest. They are not saying that breaking the law is not wrong; what they are saying is that in certain circumstances (a visit from Bush the war criminal/illegally elected president/poopyhead), it can be excused in favour of a greater good (Bush realises Bay Area students dislike him, resigns, world better place). If this greater good is not served (e.g. fundies want to prevent access to abortion clinic) they do not support breaking the laws against extrajudicial protest. Forgive me quoting myself, **John Mace** , but as I _had_ addressed the issue, I thought it best to simply say what I had again. Actually, since I made that post, I’ve thought of a better analogy: the civil rights movement. Frequently (as with the Birmingham Bus sit-ins) the civil rights movement violated the law in pursuit of their goals. Equally, the Klan and other anti-rights groups also violated the law (as with lynching-illegal, even if it often went unpunished). While I am **not** suggesting any moral equivalency between either anti-abortion groups and the Ku Klux Klan, or the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, there is a reason we now see the civil disobedience campaigns as noble and just and the actions of their opponents as heinous- because the cause of one was right, and the other was wrong\*. So yes, I would support this anti-Bush protest, while condemning an anti-abortion one. Why? Because the cause of one is right, while the other is wrong. That’s all IMO, of course, and you are free to justify the extralegal actions of those whose cause you support using the same logic. I just wanted to point out that this isn’t hypocrisy or moral cowardice, as some have suggested, but a logical and consistent policy. _And before you state that the tactics of one were peaceful, and the others violent, I’d like to point out that there were plenty of violent civil rights protestors, some of whom are now seen as having been justified (Black Panthers, maybe- maybe), that there were those who protested non-violently against desegregation et al, and that we now look at them as being unjustified in their actions_\* and that in any case, the actions of a group of Bush-opposers who peacefully prevent him going to a meeting are very different from fundies who prevent a woman going to a surgical operation that may be vital for her pyschological or, for that matter, physical wellbeing. I might defend the actions of hardcore Republicans who peacefully blocked, say, Senator Kerry’s journey to give a speech somewhere, were Kerry as morally repugnant as Bush. \*\*For example, I don’t know of anyone other than an out-and-out racist who has complained about Lyndon Johnson sending in the National Guard to protect the first black student at- which university was it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/53 "2006-04-24T00:10:07Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > Forgive me quoting myself, **John Mace** , but as I _had_ addressed the issue, I thought it best to simply say what I had again. I didn’t read your original post as condoning the blocking of the roads, so I didn’t put you in the same category as those who did. > [@](#): > > Actually, since I made that post, I’ve thought of a better analogy: the civil rights movement. Frequently (as with the Birmingham Bus sit-ins) the civil rights movement violated the law in pursuit of their goals. Equally, the Klan and other anti-rights groups also violated the law (as with lynching-illegal, even if it often went unpunished). While I am **not** suggesting any moral equivalency between either anti-abortion groups and the Ku Klux Klan, or the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, there is a reason we now see the civil disobedience campaigns as noble and just and the actions of their opponents as heinous- because the cause of one was right, and the other was wrong\*. So yes, I would support this anti-Bush protest, while condemning an anti-abortion one. Why? Because the cause of one is right, while the other is wrong. That’s all IMO, of course, and you are free to justify the extralegal actions of those whose cause you support using the same logic. I just wanted to point out that this isn’t hypocrisy or moral cowardice, as some have suggested, but a logical and consistent policy. But the civil rights protest are admired because the leaders largely used civil disobedience as a tactic. That tactic does not abridge anyone else’s rights, and that is key difference. > [@](#): > > And before you state that the tactics of one were peaceful, and the others violent, I’d like to point out that there were plenty of violent civil rights protestors, some of whom are now seen as having been justified (Black Panthers, maybe- _maybe_), I don’t see any of the violent protests as being justified. I welcome you to flesh this argument out in more detail and give us some specific examples that you see as being justified. > [@](#): > > the actions of a group of Bush-opposers who peacefully prevent him going to a meeting are very different from fundies who prevent a woman going to a surgical operation that may be vital for her pyschological or, for that matter, physical wellbeing. How do you “peacefully” prevent someone from going somewhere? If you’re going to convince me that your position is correct, you’ll need to present an argument that doesn’t contain a contradiction. I agree that the blocking of abortion clinics is different, but that difference is one of degree, not one of kind. > [@](#): > > I might defend the actions of hardcore Republicans who peacefully blocked, say, Senator Kerry’s journey to give a speech somewhere, were Kerry as morally repugnant as Bush. What are the limits that protestors can go to in thwarting Bush, and how do you determine what those limits are. Could they, for example, have stopped him from getting to campaign appointments prior to Nov '04? Could they prevent pro-Bush supporters from voting? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/54 "2006-04-24T00:25:39Z")
_prevent pro-Bush supporters from voting?_ to what effect?. The vote **count** will still reflect their votes, trebled… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/55 "2006-04-24T00:29:42Z")
_How do you “peacefully” prevent someone from going somewhere?_ no one is “preventing” a president from doing anything he wants, including plunging the world into utter chaos, as the history of the last six years shows. What is at issue is the confrontation or lack thereof. The “Peaceful” hurdle is met when cobblestones are left in their place, and only the protestors bodies are interposed. These bodies, as we know, are easily moved aside. However, the necessity for the body removal makes the news. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/56 "2006-04-24T00:37:18Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > These bodies, as we know, are easily moved aside. Which, as I am sure you will agree, does not preclude their being charged with any of several crimes that might apply to their actions, correct? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/57 "2006-04-24T00:43:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, as I am sure you will agree, does not preclude their being charged with any of several crimes that might apply to their actions, correct? the price of liberty is eternal incarceration, to paraphrase Thomas J. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/58 "2006-04-24T00:45:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Could they prevent pro-Bush supporters from voting? Sure, [the RNC and the white house do it](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12424467/site/newsweek/), why not democrats too? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/59 "2006-04-24T00:46:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, as I am sure you will agree, does not preclude their being charged with any of several crimes that might apply to their actions, correct? I, myself, loathe going to jail, which is why I am, at heart, a hopeless punk when it comes to civil disobedience–although I have boundless respect for those who are not so trammeled. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831/60 "2006-04-24T00:49:44Z")
actually, the price of liberty is a good relationship with a bail bondsman… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bay-area-to-bush-welcome-to-dinner-now-please-choke-on-it/353831.md?page=4)