# BBC: "New Florida vote scandal feared"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 27, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465 "2004-10-27T16:13:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/21 "2004-10-27T19:34:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Yet some might regard a police presence at the polls as “intimidation” in and of itself – considering the rumors of police roadblocks keeping Florida blacks from the polls in 2000, and the tactic some Pubs have used of distributing flyers in black neighborhoods falsely claiming that if you have any outstanding warrants or traffic fines when you go to vote, you will be arrested.
Good point. But could the police refuse to be present if an election inspector asked? I’d think no. It could get ugly in Florida. The Dem inspectors could order the police to step aside, and allow the person to vote. However, the voter could be arrested outside after they voted. Wise blacks would just do well to not try voting.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/22 "2004-10-27T19:42:17Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> Good point. But could the police refuse to be present if an election inspector asked? I’d think no. It could get ugly in Florida. The Dem inspectors could order the police to step aside, and allow the person to vote. However, the voter could be arrested outside after they voted. Wise blacks would just do well to not try voting.
But they’re not **actually** going to be checked for outstanding warrants, etc., that’s just a Pubbie lie tactic. And anyone whose voting credentials are challenged still gets to cast a provisional ballot and will not be arrested on the spot for trying to vote illegally. Why would any would-be voter have to fear getting arrested at the polls (unless a fight breaks out)?
---
### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/23 "2004-10-27T20:03:35Z")
This might be more of a GQ, but I’ll throw it in here:
In a perfect world, with a totally impartial Supreme Court, if shenanigans from one side were concluded to have materially affected the outcome of a presidential election, could they overturn the election results? Could a re-vote be ordered, or could a different party be awarded the election?
---
### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/24 "2004-10-27T23:14:56Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> Interesting possibility. Can Florida election inspectors request a police officer to be stationed at the precinct? I can’t remember MI law mentioning this possibility, although when I was an election inspector if I did I can’t imagine the local police refusing. Imagine the headline “Police refuse to maintain order at the polls”. Given this is a realistic possibility this year in Florida, I can imagine that poll inspectors may indeed demand police presence.
This is precisely the strategy in African American neighborhoods in Ohio.
Inevitable Terror alert or terror fears = we must have officers stationed outside polling locations to look people over as they come to vote.
But, of course, only in the African American neighborhoods where the terrorists are most likely to hit.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/25 "2004-10-28T00:33:49Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#):
>
> This might be more of a GQ, but I’ll throw it in here:
>
> In a perfect world, with a totally impartial Supreme Court, if shenanigans from one side were concluded to have materially affected the outcome of a presidential election, could they overturn the election results? Could a re-vote be ordered, or could a different party be awarded the election?
There is no precedent and no constitutional or statutory provisions for a re-vote. If neither candidate wins a clear majority, the Constitution throws the decision into the House of Representatives:
> [@](#):
>
> Article II
>
> Section 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows
>
> Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
>
> The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be no more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by Ballot one of them for President: and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner choose the President. But in choosing the President, the Votes shall be taken by the states, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall choose from them by Ballot the Vice President.
>
> The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
---
### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/26 "2004-10-28T07:30:56Z")
Since I’ve already voted, I think I’m going to restock my “survival room” for the first time in a couple of years. Stock up on canned meats, peanut butter, bread, water, tequila…
Who recorded “Tuesday Afternoon”? Moody Blues? I’ll just put it on endless loop until a decision is made and the streets are safe again. Somebody come and get me.
Go, Johnny, go!
---
### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/27 "2004-10-28T15:20:36Z")
Just an update: Republican pre-election challenges apparently hit a major snafu in Akron, Ohio
Many of the people they claimed didn’t exist or didn’t live in the county actually showed up, their utility bills, IDs and so on in hand. And they were PISSED: some had been voting in the same place for years without anything like this ever happening. When it quickly became apparent that the Republicans had no real knowledge or evidence on which to challenge people’s right to vote outside of their party affiliation and (cough) other factors, and with legitimate voters whom they had challenged there and in their faces, they tried to dismiss all 900 or so of their own challenges without prejudice and back out of the proceedings. The Democratic/Republican BOE instead unanimously dismissed all 900 challenges WITH prejudice.
Ouch.
---
### Author:  [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/28 "2004-10-28T15:34:33Z")
Similar stuff happening in Atkinson County, GA, where the law allows any registered voter to challenge the eligibility of any other voter.
A fellow named Sutton and a couple of his friends got wind of allegations that a county commissioner named Metts was signing up illegal aliens.
So Sutton requested the names of all hispanic voters in the county, and issued a challenge against 98 of them.
Interestingly NPR interviewed a Texas-born man with a hispanic name who was challenged, but I don’t recall hearing any mention of the Metts flap in their report.
---
### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/29 "2004-10-28T15:36:57Z")
Maybe the Democrats should challenge every single Republican registered voter in every single state, just to let them see what it feels like.
My question: why do our elected officials fear democracy?
---
### Author:  [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/30 "2004-10-28T15:48:30Z")
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Just an update: Republican pre-election challenges apparently hit a major snafu in Akron, Ohio
>
> Many of the people they claimed didn’t exist or didn’t live in the county actually showed up, their utility bills, IDs and so on in hand. And they were PISSED: some had been voting in the same place for years without anything like this ever happening. When it quickly became apparent that the Republicans had no real knowledge or evidence on which to challenge people’s right to vote outside of their party affiliation and (cough) other factors, and with legitimate voters whom they had challenged there and in their faces, they tried to dismiss all 900 or so of their own challenges without prejudice and back out of the proceedings. The Democratic/Republican BOE instead unanimously dismissed all 900 challenges WITH prejudice.
>
> Ouch.
Please correct me if I’m wrong - **Apos** or anyone else – By dismissing the challenges with prejudice, the challenges cannot be refiled.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/31 "2004-10-28T17:46:42Z")
> [@Papermache Prince](#):
>
> Please correct me if I’m wrong - **Apos** or anyone else – By dismissing the challenges with prejudice, the challenges cannot be refiled.
That’s how it works in court, presumably the same with the BOE if they use the same terminology. But I would presume that applies only to those specific 900 or so challenged voters – the Pubs might come back with a new list.
---
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/32 "2004-10-28T18:51:59Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#):
>
> My question: why do our elected officials fear democracy?
Sounds like it’s only the Republicans who fear democracy. Wonder why.
---
### Author:  [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/33 "2004-10-28T19:23:05Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#):
>
> Similar stuff happening in Atkinson County, GA, where the law allows any registered voter to challenge the eligibility of any other voter.
>
> A fellow named Sutton and a couple of his friends got wind of allegations that a county commissioner named Metts was signing up illegal aliens.
>
> So Sutton requested the names of all hispanic voters in the county, and issued a challenge against 98 of them.
>
> Interestingly NPR interviewed a Texas-born man with a hispanic name who was challenged, but I don’t recall hearing any mention of the Metts flap in their report.
I heard this story on NPR yesterday, and the first thing that came to mind (well, the second thing…) was: how does one so readily sort voter registrations by ethnicity? I’m sure he just didn’t ask for all voters with names ending in “-ez”; which means that the voter registration forms must have a box to check ethnicity. So…what the hell for? A darn good argument for “color-blind” government forms, IMHO – all sorts of mischief can ensure.
---
### Author:  [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/34 "2004-10-28T19:30:48Z")
Seems like you need Election Monitors to ensure that you can all express your democratic rights. Fortunately [they’ve arrived](http://www.euro-correspondent.com/ed68_280904.htm)
---
### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/35 "2004-10-28T19:39:02Z")
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Just an update: Republican pre-election challenges apparently hit a major snafu in Akron, Ohio
>
> Many of the people they claimed didn’t exist or didn’t live in the county actually showed up, their utility bills, IDs and so on in hand. And they were PISSED: some had been voting in the same place for years without anything like this ever happening. When it quickly became apparent that the Republicans had no real knowledge or evidence on which to challenge people’s right to vote outside of their party affiliation and (cough) other factors, and with legitimate voters whom they had challenged there and in their faces, they tried to dismiss all 900 or so of their own challenges without prejudice and back out of the proceedings. The Democratic/Republican BOE instead unanimously dismissed all 900 challenges WITH prejudice.
>
> Ouch.
**Apos** , where’s that article?
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/36 "2004-10-28T22:08:30Z")
> [@Vetch](#):
>
> Seems like you need Election Monitors to ensure that you can all express your democratic rights. Fortunately [they’ve arrived](http://www.euro-correspondent.com/ed68_280904.htm)
And about time! 😃
One of those monitors is from South Africa. A South African monitoring a U.S. election. How times have changed!
---
### Author:  [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/37 "2004-10-28T23:21:37Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> **Apos** , where’s that article?
[http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10038098.htm?1c](http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10038098.htm?1c)
Btw, this isn’t just in Akron. It’s a statewide effort. Thousands of Republican challengers will be on hand at polling places across Ohio.
---
### Author:  [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/38 "2004-10-28T23:29:26Z")
Here’s a national perspective on poll watchers…
[http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-poll-watchers,0,7901580.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines](http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-poll-watchers,0,7901580.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines)
…which includes this re Ohio:
> [@Newsday](#):
>
> In Ohio, monitors had to register with election officials by Oct. 22. More than 2,000 Ohio Democrats will watch for voter intimidation and disenfranchisement, while Republicans recruited about 3,600 people, many in the Democratic strongholds of Cleveland, Toledo and Dayton, who will look for fraudulent voting.
Republicans in Ohio, btw, say they are responding to indications of fraud – specifically, thousands of mailpieces to newly registered Dem voters which were returned as undeliverable.
---
### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/39 "2004-10-28T23:43:47Z")
As I said, I’ve been personally dealing with part of the fallout of those mailpieces. I can confirm that there are tons and tons of real voters, legitimate voters, that they’ve wrongly challenged.
Basically, they did a mass mailing (Republicans, being pretty lazy despite all their talk about doing tons of fieldwork this time, still pretty much work via direct mail, a large chunk of it negative sent to Democrats and new voters to convince them not to vote) ostensibly to “welcome new voters! (also, did you know that John Edwards killed his own son, Wade by cutting his break line?)” They got what was returned undeliverable, and then challenged everbody based on that.
Problem is, their returned mail is not the same thing as the BOE’s returned mail. So angry people who do exist and do live in the counties in question are showing up en masse, absolutely PISSED that after voting for decades that someone is now trying to strip them from the rolls just because they moved two houses down, or because their address was wrong in whatever crazy database the Republicans bought to do the mailings (which wasn’t as up-to-date as the BOE’s databases apparently). They have MAJOR egg on their faces over this one.
However, I suspect that in part this may be a setup for crying wolf after the election. As they say in these stories, they are basically wilting away and saying “well, this just goes to show why we have to challenge people right in the polling location on election day.” This supposedly gives them an excuse when they use their challengers to help create lines and stall the polls for a win.
---
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465/40 "2004-10-28T23:46:34Z")
Of course, the Republicans offer _no evidence_ that said mail was undeliverable…
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-new-florida-vote-scandal-feared/271465.md?page=3)