# BBC news online, or is it the onion in disguise?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685 "2004-09-29T17:19:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/221 "2004-09-30T19:41:35Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > [Red Square: Painterly Realism of a Peasant Woman in Two Dimensions.](http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/malevich/sup/malevich.peasant-woman.jpg) […] I could appreciate the direction the artist is coming from, but come on, it’s a fucking _square._ No it’s not-- she got a hunch, and a slight limp – the poor oppressed woman. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/222 "2004-09-30T19:44:08Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You remind me of people that say “That ain’t poetry! It don’t rhyme!” :eek: Here we go again. Listen, you… ! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/223 "2004-09-30T19:48:29Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Depends how you mean that. I think **Terminus Est** means you’re doing the message board equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going, “La la la la la la la, I can’t hear you!” ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/224 "2004-09-30T19:50:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > “You’re being manipulated into believing something that isn’t true” is not a statement of aesthetic opinion. Hm. I suppose my suggestion about the century-old practical joke is the genesis of this, then, rather than my opinion that the works take no skill? Sorry, things getting hard to follow. Let me clarify - that was a joke. I believe that the first couple of people trying this sort of thing probably did it genuinely. I even believe there are people who do it genuinely today. I believe also, however, that their works are indistinguishable from someone’s work who just slops something together, presents it with confidence and a good backstory, and gets an art critic to buy it. Does that help, **O Arbiter**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/225 "2004-09-30T19:52:20Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I think **Terminus Est** means you’re doing the message board equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going, “La la la la la la la, I can’t hear you!” Huh. Well, I’m not, but if he thinks that, there’s really nothing I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/226 "2004-09-30T19:56:48Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Do I think my opinion is the best? Well - yeah, otherwise, I’d have a different opinion that I thought was better, wouldn’t I? Not necessarily. One can not like something, yet respect it or admit to not understanding it. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time. Personally, I think there is an argument to be made regarding the objectivity of aesthetics. I don’t think it’s completely subjective, and I think there is a case for–I don’t want to use this word, but let’s say–elitism in the arts. I think some people have better insight on what constitutes “good art” than others. I don’t believe I’m as capable of judging, say, good rap vs. bad rap because I only have a fleeting knowledge of the subject. I don’t dislike it, but I can’t make an honest aesthetic appraisal without understanding the genre first. So I yield to those who know what the hell they’re talking about. I don’t believe all opinions are equally valid when it comes to aesthetics. But that’s a discussion for a different thread; I’m getting enough of a headache in this one. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/227 "2004-09-30T19:58:23Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I believe also, however, that their works are indistinguishable from someone’s work who just slops something together, presents it with confidence and a good backstory, and gets an art critic to buy it. This is not an aesthetic opinion; it is a testable hyphothesis. Pleaser report back on the results. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/228 "2004-09-30T19:58:33Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Opinions about aesthetics are all of equal value, in my book. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > Do I think my opinion is the best? Well - yeah, otherwise, I’d have a different opinion that I thought was better, wouldn’t I? If one opinion is “best,” then they aren’t all of equal value. Make up your mind–either all opinions are equally valid, or they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/229 "2004-09-30T20:00:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Not necessarily. Personally, I think there is an argument to be made regarding the objectivity of aesthetics. I don’t think it’s completely subjective, and I think there is a case for–I don’t want to use this word, but let’s say–elitism in the arts. I think some people have better insight on what constitutes “good art” than others. I don’t believe I’m as capable of judging, say, good rap vs. bad rap because I only have a fleeting knowledge of the subject. I don’t dislike it, but I can’t make an honest aesthetic appraisal without understanding the genre first. So I yield to those who know what the hell they’re talking about. Careful dude, when I say shit like that all the anti-intellectual elites climb all over me. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/230 "2004-09-30T20:02:19Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > If one opinion is “best,” then they aren’t all of equal value. Make up your mind–either all opinions are equally valid, or they aren’t. All opinions are equally valid, except for **CandidGamera** ’s, which is more equal than the others. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/231 "2004-09-30T20:04:26Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Huh. Well, I’m not… Not to that extent but you do seem to be a bit unwilling to listen to the opinions of others. A quality you share with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/232 "2004-09-30T20:05:30Z")
\*When I go out with artists They talk about language and the cubists and the dadaists And I try to catch their meanings And keep up with all the martinis I don’t know which should be my favorite paintings If I could see, if I could see, if I could See all the symbols, unlock what they mean Maybe I could, maybe I could, maybe I Could meet the artists, and get to know them personally - – **Crash Test Dummies** , _When I Go Out With Artists_ ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/233 "2004-09-30T20:05:33Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > If one opinion is “best,” then they aren’t all of equal value. Make up your mind–either all opinions are equally valid, or they aren’t. Within the context of the question lissener was asking - namely, whether ‘informed’ opinions were more valuable than ‘uninformed’ opinions - it is my assertions that for aesthetics, they are not. The other comment was general to all opinions. Namely, do I like my aesthetic taste better than JRandomGuy’s? Yes. Obviously. It’s self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/234 "2004-09-30T20:06:07Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Careful dude, when I say shit like that all the anti-intellectual elites climb all over me. I know, that’s why I say it hesitatingly. I’m not self-identifying with one of the “elites,” by the way. I have too many holes in my art history to truly appreciate art. But I trust the opinions of experts in this matter. I feel I can comment with confidence in the field of photography or, more specificly, photojournalism. But I’ll reserve judgment for things I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/235 "2004-09-30T20:06:52Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not to that extent but you do seem to be a bit unwilling to listen to the opinions of others. A quality you share with the OP. I’m perfectly willing to listen to the opinions of others, if they’ll listen to mine, and the reasons that mine are different from theirs. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/236 "2004-09-30T20:07:04Z")
As I’ve said numerous times before, I for one give a lot more credit for an opinion of a positive nature than a negative one. And I don’t mean one that praises as opposed to criticizes; I mean an opinion that discusses something that IS there rather than something that is NOT there. To claim there’s nothing there when many people DO see something there is plain ignorance, and not a really valuable opinion. You can’t support a negative opinion, all you can do is claim the validity of ALL opinions in the abstract. Not much use in a discussion of art. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/237 "2004-09-30T20:08:30Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > \*If I could see, if I could see, if I could > See all the symbols, unlock what they mean > Maybe I could > > - – **Crash Test Dummies** , _When I Go Out With Artists_ No, that’s surrealism, not abstract expressionism. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/238 "2004-09-30T20:08:35Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > anti-intellectual elites Isn’t that an oxymoron? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/239 "2004-09-30T20:09:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Personally, I think there is an argument to be made regarding the objectivity of aesthetics. I don’t think it’s completely subjective, and I think there is a case for–I don’t want to use this word, but let’s say–elitism in the arts. I think some people have better insight on what constitutes “good art” than others. I don’t believe I’m as capable of judging, say, good rap vs. bad rap because I only have a fleeting knowledge of the subject. I don’t dislike it, but I can’t make an honest aesthetic appraisal without understanding the genre first. So I yield to those who know what the hell they’re talking about. > > I don’t believe all opinions are equally valid when it comes to aesthetics. Then you and I will never see eye to eye, and further discussion will be unproductive. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/240 "2004-09-30T20:11:41Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > As I’ve said numerous times before, I for one give a lot more credit for an opinion of a positive nature than a negative one. And I don’t mean one that praises as opposed to criticizes; I mean an opinion that discusses something that IS there rather than something that is NOT there. To claim there’s nothing there when many people DO see something there is plain ignorance, and not a really valuable opinion. You can’t support a negative opinion, all you can do is claim the validity of ALL opinions in the abstract. Not much use in a discussion of art. And this is why you got those ‘pretentious’ comments earlier, dude. You’ve just asserted that if someone gets nothing from a painting that speaks to you, that they’re ignorant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685.md?page=13)