# BBC news online, or is it the onion in disguise?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685 "2004-09-29T17:19:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/401 "2004-10-01T23:16:40Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > And thank you, O Noble Missionaries of the Way, the Light, and the Truth, endeavouring to bring Your Light, Which Of Course Can Be The Only True Light, None Others Will Do, to my dark corner of civilization. > > How **dare** I not be grateful for your attempts to “Enlighten” me, a lowly peon? > … > > Seriously, what the hell? Were you expecting me to convert to your point of view, kiss your feet, and say “Thank you sir, may I have another?” > > Jeebus. ‘Stuck-up’ doesn’t even begin to cover it. I, personally, was hoping that you’d crack open your mind just a tiny little bit and maybe consider the possibility that there’s something worthwhile in abstract art if you’re willing to meet the artist half-way. I mean, it’s not like it’s going to cost you anything, except perhaps an admission that you were wrong about something. Which would, I think, be a small price to pay for the opportunity to explore an entire new artistic world. Too bad you’re so obstinately welded to your opinions and preconceptions. It really is a shame, because you’re a smart guy, and I know you could get a lot out of abstract art if you weren’t so afraid to make the effort. I’d say the same about rap and techno music, too. I simply can’t imagine the mindset that can so casually dismiss an entire genre of art, for any reason. I don’t know why anyone would put those sorts of limits on themselves, let alone be so proud of them. I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t want to make every effort to fill their lives with as much art as possible, of every imaginable kind. But, hey, if you’re happy with nothing more than comic books and role-playing games, that’s your decision. And your loss. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/402 "2004-10-02T01:08:14Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That’s why I hate modern art. Okay, but you’re still a dumb shit. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/403 "2004-10-02T01:41:36Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Heh heh. Well, I do like poetry to rhyme, or have some sort of syllable-count pattern, or have something of the sort - because if it doesn’t, it’s pretty much prose. > [@William Carlos Williams](#): > > ``` > I have eaten > the plums > that were in > the icebox > > and which > you were probably > saving > for breakfast > > Forgive me > they were delicious > so sweet > and so cold > > ``` But of course that’s just a note left on the fridge, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/404 "2004-10-02T05:26:13Z")
[Steven Wright] I went to a museum of children’s art today. All of the exhibits were on refrigerator doors. [/Steven Wright] Forgive me if someone else already mentioned that joke. This thread is looong and I haven’t read the whole thing yet. I just clicked over to Marla’s web page and looked at some more of her work. If she painted that stuff, she is amazing. If she didn’t paint it, then whoever did is really good. Maybe the Olmsteads have a pet elephant? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/405 "2004-10-02T05:28:24Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Okay, but you’re still a dumb shit. Fuck you. I’m a dumb shit because I don’t find any deep meaning in abstract art? That’s elitism plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/406 "2004-10-02T06:07:06Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Fuck you. I’m a dumb shit because I don’t find any deep meaning in abstract art? > > That’s elitism plain and simple. No. Fuck, actually, you. > [@Justin Bailey](#): > > That’s why I hate modern art. > > I will admit though that I liked it a lot and if I had the money would gladly hang it (or a reprint) in my house. But to say that a 50 x 50 grid of colored squares is some kind of artistic masterwork is ludicrous. You loved the piece, and yet you still _ **HATE** _ modern art? Do you know what hate is? Do you know what it means? “Hate is such a strong word.” “Hate” and “don’t find deep meaning” are different things, dumbass. To hate modern art because your professor tried to share his love for Mondrian with you makes you a dumb shit. Try saying what you mean, or at least meaning what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/407 "2004-10-02T06:08:27Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Awww… you want me to paint a red square for you and sign it? Well, I’m very busy right now with practical, useful matters, so it’ll have to wait a while - but to make up for it, I’ll let you pick which two-dimensional shape it is, and which color. Cerulean hexagon, amber trapezoid, magenta rhombus - go nuts. So much for your argument. You can’t do it. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > Ask Yookaroo. He/she’s the one that thought it up. _shrug_ Create something that’s considered art. Find a buyer. Or find someone who understands art who is willing to consider it even a marginally significant piece. Monkeys can do it, it shouldn’t that much harder for you. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/408 "2004-10-02T06:28:26Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > You loved the piece, and yet you still _ **HATE** _ modern art? Do you know what hate is? Do you know what it means? “Hate is such a strong word.” > > “Hate” and “don’t find deep meaning” are different things, dumbass. To hate modern art because your professor tried to share his love for Mondrian with you makes you a dumb shit. Try saying what you mean, or at least meaning what you say. Let me explain this slower so you can understand it. I hate “Modern” and “Abstract” art. The pseudo-intellectual bullshit ravings, like the one that was posted a few pages back, are sickening to me. I am not a dumb shit because I hate the attitude behind these movements, but can find them visually appealing. I know that’s hard to hear with you standing on your high horse like that. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/409 "2004-10-02T06:30:30Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Fuck you. I’m a dumb shit because I don’t find any deep meaning in abstract art? > > That’s elitism plain and simple. This is the first time you’ve said you “don’t find any deep meaning in abstract art,” so I doubt that’s what Cervaise was reacting to. This, however, is something a dumbshit would say: > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > This doesn’t require very much talent, it’s basically arts and craft day at my cousin’s preschool. A six year old with the appropriate restraint to not eat the glue could create a picture equally as good. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/410 "2004-10-02T06:36:23Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Let me explain this slower so you can understand it. I hate “Modern” and “Abstract” art. The pseudo-intellectual bullshit ravings, like the one that was posted a few pages back, are sickening to me. > > I am not a dumb shit because I hate the attitude behind these movements, but can find them visually appealing. I know that’s hard to hear with you standing on your high horse like that. Jesus fucking Christ. How stupid can you be? If you find them visually appealing, then YOU DON’T HATE THEM. You hate the “pseudo-intellectual bullshit ravings.” You hate the attitude, not the art. Dumb shit. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/411 "2004-10-02T06:43:13Z")
**Lissener** - tell me I’m wrong beause honestly, it was a grid. A six year old with graph paper and a box of crayons could recreate it exactly. And fine, I hate the attitude behind modern art and not every modern art piece. I thought that was obvious as that’s what people havebeen arguing about this whole thread, but then there I go looking for ratonality in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/412 "2004-10-02T13:26:40Z")
Okay, look, Mondrian — He’s not new!!! He was doing some of this stuff nearly 100 years ago!!! Back when jazz was scandalous!!! You’re acting like he’s this avante-garde modernist, and I hate to break it to you, but a whole lot of art that’s far more oblique has been created in the hundred years since. The fact that Mondrian even painted makes him old school compared to what the cutting edge people are doing now. I don’t understand why the concept of “context” is so unattainable to some of you. What is it, exactly, that made Julius Irving so extraordinary? People play basketball that way now. Well, he did things no one else did at the time. IT’S THE SAME THING. Mondrian was innovative, no one had thought of doing things his way. You could imitate Mondrian’s style? No shit, Sherlock. That isn’t the point. I can bounce a basketball, ain’t nobody in the NBA gonna come calling. Copying others is EXACTLY what you do in art school, in order to study their work more closely and to understand the contrast with your own approach. And then you’re expected to go out and make work in your own voice. Did you know that da Vinci was left-handed? I learned that from copying his drawings, which I copied quite accurately. Does that make me da Vinci, or diminish him in any way? Fuck no. Really one problem is that we’re not all standing together at a museum in front of a Mondrian. In critiquing art you always refer back to the work right in front of you, making gestures with your arms to explain how one area of the canvas relates to another, or how your eye was drawn through the piece, or how the negative and positive spaces create balance (or tension). Discussing his work in this format is rather like trying to discuss a restaurant having seen only the menu. Look, have you ever really studied any advertising? Have you noticed that advertisers are quite cagey about the images they use and their placement? Have you realized that your eye is drawn one direction and then another, and that the use of some colors and forms creates a subtle emotional response? Haven’t you noticed that some colors and designs are commonly used to promote certain products - like the use of green, as if that made a product more eco-friendly? Well, advertisers learned this from fine artists; a lot of educated fine artists end up going into advertising to make a living. Fine artists are trained to be extremely sensitive to all visual elements. It’s real, it’s not bullshit. This world of visual communicating exists, and it’s part of everyone’s life. To learn to appreciate fine art is to learn to be aware of your visual response and to the artist’s communication. Or you can close your mind and shut your eyes, but that’s a rather stupid thing to do. Would you move to a foreign country and refuse to learn the language? ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/413 "2004-10-02T13:38:00Z")
To continue the sports analogy, rejecting art because you don’t like the verbage used to describe it is rather like rejecting sports because you don’t understand what the sportscasters are saying. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/414 "2004-10-02T19:28:13Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I’m not sure why. **Lobsang** has apparently tired, I’ve conceded, and at this point it appears **CandidGamera** is merely practicing stubborness. Practicing? Hell, I’m a master. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/415 "2004-10-02T19:31:23Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > So much for your argument. You can’t do it. Well, you’re wrong. Your impatience does not make it my priority. > [@](#): > > Create something that’s considered art. Find a buyer. Or find someone who understands art who is willing to consider it even a marginally significant piece. Monkeys can do it, it shouldn’t that much harder for you. This wasn’t the challenge as presented. And I’m to understand the monkeys actually have significant difficulty negotiating with buyers - they usually need to go through agents that don’t fling feces. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/416 "2004-10-02T19:36:15Z")
Oh, and welcome to the discussion, Justin. It’s gotten a little cold in here - I have a stick-figure sketch a friend of mine drew in five minutes - I could burn it for warmth, but hey, some person out there might pay half a million dollars for it, so I’m holding off. It amazes me how angry some people get when other parties disagree with their value system … ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/417 "2004-10-02T19:39:00Z")
Still waiting: > [@lissener](#): > > Could this whole thing be a variation of “90% of everything is crap”? I mean, surely there are people out there who have tried to pull the scam that CG is describing. In my long association with the art world, I can’t think of anyone who’s done so successfully–although arguments could be made for Warhol, Koons, and the guy who’s name I can’t think of; comic book panels? sploding planes?–anyway. But those people are artists, they’re just more “conceptual” than “graphical.” > > “Art” != “2D rectangles.” > > What CG doesn’t acknowledge, and what no one seems to have mentioned really, is that Cage’s _4:33_ and the simplistic works that CG doesn’t get are just the tip of the iceberg; the end of the story; the receipt for the transaction. > > To many people, an abstract expressionist painting is more about process than product: the painting itself is just what’s left when the dust of creating it has settled: it’s a document of what the artist experienced while he was painting it. > > And even with more conceptual stuff that’s not about process, it can be about a huge idea expressed in a small medium. > > CG is focusing on the physical product, as if it existed without a context. > > Art is FAR more about what it does to you head than what it does to your eyes, CG. Much of the art that you denigrate isn’t about craft or skill or manual dexterity: it’s about thinking of a new way to say something, not necessarily with language or pictograms. > > You’re looking for art where 1=1 and a pipe is a pipe. That’s a very, very small subset of “Art,” and, frankly, is the easiest kind to produce. The hardest kind of art is the kind that requires thought and, more importantly, carries thought from one person to another. Who are you to say that only literal imagery is a valid way to accomplish that? > > Nothing is more abstract that written language, but you fail to acknowledge the systematic education that is required in order to understand it. Art encompasses ALL languages, and they don’t all work from the same phrasebook. > > Don’t want to learn Icelandic? Fine. Cool. But it’s just childish to roll your eyes at someone reading an Icelandic poem and saying ANY ape can run his eyes from left to right over a row of black squiggles; that doesn’t mean he’s actually READING. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/418 "2004-10-02T19:41:36Z")
Not seeing anything of value in any given genre of art doesn’t make anyone a dumbshit. But the minute you start making fun of people who DO find something of value in it, you’re an arrogant asshole. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/419 "2004-10-02T19:59:19Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Still waiting: Sorry, glazed over it saw myself referred to in the third person several times… didn’t suppose that I needed to comment. You say I was making fun of you - I don’t recall making fun of anyone specifically until after the personal flaming was initiated. Perhaps something could’ve been taken that way. However, if you’re taking my initial statements personally - I can’t help you. There are things in this world that I hold as valueless, and so-called ‘abstract art’ is one of them. You believe : > [@](#): > > it’s about thinking of a new way to say something And I don’t buy that. And never will. You might as well be trying to convert me to some other religion. If it burns you up so much to hear me ‘denigrate’ abstract art and by association, its practitioners and adherents - that’s you taking it too personally. To pick a random religion to make an analogy - the Mormons. I believe different things than the Mormons. Therefore, implicitly, I must think that their beliefs are wrong on some level. I’m not gonna lecture them out of the blue and try to convert them - but neither am I going to study Mormonism to try and seek deeper meaning from it. If someone posts an OP lambasting some aspect of the Mormon religion, I might pipe in with my own humorous jibes - my goal is not to offend the Mormons, but to make a few jokes while expressing agreement with the OP. If a Mormon saw my comments and got angry - well, I’m sorry they got angry, I definitely think you’re welcome to believe what you like, but I’m not going to believe it, ever, and me expressing my opinion on the matter is not a request for education or behavioral modification. It’s simple expression. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685/420 "2004-10-02T22:22:47Z")
Um . . . you still haven’t responded to the post I reposted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bbc-news-online-or-is-it-the-onion-in-disguise/266685.md?page=22)