BBC's Merlin

[pepperlandgirl]

@Miller

1.1 The witch wants vengeance for Uther executing her son (who, as far as we’ve seen, is actually blameless). Her vengeance takes the form of murdering an innocent woman to take her place, murdering a scullery maid who accidentally discovers her identity, and attempting to murder not Uther, but Arthur, who hasn’t done anything worse than be an over-priviledged jerk.

Well it’s blood vengeance, it’s not logical, and wouldn’t be necessary if Uther hadn’t executed a probably innocent person. He was just guilty of “sorcery” and there’s no indication he had brought harm to the kingdom before Uther beheaded him.

1.2 A knight uses magic to secretly kill his opponents in a tourney.

But Valiant wasn’t a magician, just a dick. I don’t know if we can count that because he probably would have found another way to cheat to kill Arthur.

1.3 Nimue, who has a very legitimate beef with Uther, decides that the best way to get revenge is to poison everyone in Camelot.
1.4 When that doesn’t work, she tries to start a war by murdering Merlin, whom she chooses as her target entirely because he successfully prevented her from killing all of his friends (along with everyone else in Camelot) in the previous episode.

Nimue was once Uther’s friend. It’s hard to say if she would have killed the entire kingdom if Uther hadn’t betrayed her and murdered all of her friends in very public burnings/beheadings. She should not have poisoned the water, but her actions were directly motivated by Uther.

1.5 The only episode I’ve seen so far where the villain isn’t a magic user. It’s a magic beast instead - the griffon. Still not a great advertisement for how wonderful magic really is.

But nobody knew what it was or how to defend against it, or kill it, because the weapon that could had been outlawed and literally purged from the kingdom.

Villager 1: Hey, what’s that then?
Villager 2: Looks like a Griffon. I’ll go get the old wizard, he’ll have it taken care of in no time.
Villager 1: Okay, I’ll alert the knights and their mage, too.
Villager 2: Wonderful! We just saved several lives!

Of course, that can’t happen because of Uther.

1.6 The son of executed sorcerers decides to get revenge on Uther by having his magic beetle burrow a hole into Morgana’s brain. Admittedly, his plot required that he be able to save Morgana’s life before doing the same thing to Uther, but still.

So if Uther hadn’t murdered his parents, he would have never had reason to attack Uther (or Morgana or Gaius). Alternately, we could have had the following scenario:

Gaius: Looks like magic ot me.
Uther: Quite
Gaius: Let’s have Merlin save her life.
Uther: Yeah okay.

But of course, it would be better for people to potentially die because magic is so evil.

1.7 It’s revealed that fairies consider human sacrifice an acceptable way for someone to pay off their debts. These are creatures of pure magic, and their actions are entirely unrelated to anything Uther has done.

Indeed. But like the griffon example, nobody was prepared for this sort of thing and they were entirely defenseless (if not for Merlin). If Merlin hadn’t been there breaking Uther’s law, Arthur would be dead again. So even though Uther clearly can’t stop all magical creatures, he’s actively hurting his kingdom.

1.8 This is the first episode I’ve seen where you can make a good argument, based purely on what what’s shown in the episode, that Uther’s anti-magic policy is genuinely tyrannical. However, if you judge the episode based on knowledge of Arthurian mythos in general, it’s a damn shame he wasn’t successful, because the kid grows up to be the biggest villain in Britain. And, once again, he’s a magic user.

But again it’s a situation that was 100% created by Uther and his policies. The Druids were never said to enemies of Camelot before Uther began his war against magic, and given the fact that both Nimue and Gaius were in Uther’s court, it stands to reason that the Druids were most likely either neutral or peaceful allies. Uther doesn’t arrest Druids based on whether or not they use magic, he arrests them for being Druids. I don’t see how that’s a morally defensible act.

1.9 This is the first episode where the antagonist’s actions are remotely morally defensible - the black knight only kills Uther’s knights, and only those that volunteer to fight him in one-on-one combat. This is, of course, also a plot by Nimue, but note that this was her second back-up plan, after poisoning the entire city and starting a war both failed.

But the Black Knight had a legitimate beef with Uther, as Uther sacrificed his sister for Arthur’s life.

Also remember why Uther has gone all bloody hungry for sorcerers. It’s not because they were laying siege on Camelot, killing people indiscriminately, or harming anybody. The only reason ever stated was that the vendetta began after Ygraine died. And his cover story was that “magic stole her” but I don’t believe for a second he didn’t know what he was doing. I can discuss that point more after you’ve seen the rest of the show.

[Kamino_Neko]

@Miller

1.1 The witch wants vengeance for Uther executing her son (who, as far as we’ve seen, is actually blameless). Her vengeance takes the form of murdering an innocent woman to take her place, murdering a scullery maid who accidentally discovers her identity, and attempting to murder not Uther, but Arthur, who hasn’t done anything worse than be an over-priviledged jerk.

1.2 A knight uses magic to secretly kill his opponents in a tourney.

These are actually 2 of the 4 I counted as ‘would have been a threat anyway’ (though I’d forgotten Mary’s motives, so that number goes down).

As to Mary…she’s no worse than Uther on that note - as pepperlandgirl pointed out, the betrayal of Nimue I’ve mentioned a few times was vengeance for the death of his wife, which was payment for the life of Arthur. He made a hard decision - ultimately, if the Dragon can be trusted, the right one, but one that cost his wife her life - and, then, rather than own his own guilt for it, he had Nimue and all other magic users banished, or executed. And in 2.2, he was willing to go to war with a foreign royal, named Odin, over an attempt to assassinate Arthur (which was, itself, vengeance in reaction to Arthur killing Odin’s son) - until Arthur talked him down. He’d survived, there was no reason to throw away Camelot’s soldiers (and Odin’s) in a conflict over it. (Arthur has an impressive tendency temper his hubris and bad choices with humility and good sense.)

At least Mary, Nimue, Edwin, Tristam, Mordred, Tauren, Morgana, Odin, and the others are actually blaming the right person for the crimes against them, even if their means of vengeance are excessive or misaimed.

Valiant, Sophia, Sigan, etc are just bastards - however, there are also Myror (Odin’s assassin), Kanan, Cedric (who ends up suffering a karmic death when Sigan possesses him), etc, who are just as vile and self-serving, and have no magic at their disposal.

[Kamino_Neko]

Oh, and plg covered most of my responses to the others - I’d meant to include a comment about that in my previous post, but it got cut in edits and I forgot to put it back in.

[Miller]

@pepperlandgirl

Well it’s blood vengeance, it’s not logical, and wouldn’t be necessary if Uther hadn’t executed a probably innocent person. He was just guilty of “sorcery” and there’s no indication he had brought harm to the kingdom before Uther beheaded him.

I’m not saying that Uther didn’t done do her wrong. I’m saying that, if your response to being wronged is to murder up to three innocent, uninvolved parties, you are evil. Yeah, I’m aware that you can lay exactly the same charge against Uther, but that does presume that his idea that magic and magic users are inherently evil doesn’t have any basis in reality. The witch’s action are one mark in favor of that idea.

But Valiant wasn’t a magician, just a dick. I don’t know if we can count that because he probably would have found another way to cheat to kill Arthur.

Granted, but whoever made the shield had to be aware that he was doing something very, very shady.

Nimue was once Uther’s friend. It’s hard to say if she would have killed the entire kingdom if Uther hadn’t betrayed her and murdered all of her friends in very public burnings/beheadings. She should not have poisoned the water, but her actions were directly motivated by Uther.

I’m not saying she didn’t have a reason for her actions. I’m saying that a person who figures that killing off thousands of innocent people is an acceptable way to get vengeance against one person is a horrible monster. If Uther had never gone on the war path against magic, she probably wouldn’t have tried to wipe Camelot off the map. But someone that wholly devoid of any sort of morality is going to be a danger to other people, regardless of who or what does something to set her off.

And, again, I know you can say pretty much the same thing about Uther. Presuming, of course, that he was wrong about magic users being inherently evil.

But nobody knew what it was or how to defend against it, or kill it, because the weapon that could had been outlawed and literally purged from the kingdom.

I’m just saying, it’s another example of magic being destructive and dangerous to human life. You can make a good argument for keeping magic around to deal with stuff like that, but that’s not really an argument that magic is not, itself, dangerous and evil.

Indeed. But like the griffon example, nobody was prepared for this sort of thing and they were entirely defenseless (if not for Merlin). If Merlin hadn’t been there breaking Uther’s law, Arthur would be dead again. So even though Uther clearly can’t stop all magical creatures, he’s actively hurting his kingdom.

Granted, it does appear that the only way to defend against magic is to employ magic yourself. But that’s a bit like saying the only way to defend against nuclear weapons is to have nuclear weapons of your own. It’s not a good argument for morality of magic itself.

But again it’s a situation that was 100% created by Uther and his policies. The Druids were never said to enemies of Camelot before Uther began his war against magic, and given the fact that both Nimue and Gaius were in Uther’s court, it stands to reason that the Druids were most likely either neutral or peaceful allies. Uther doesn’t arrest Druids based on whether or not they use magic, he arrests them for being Druids. I don’t see how that’s a morally defensible act.

It’s entirely indefensible, if one rejects Uther’s contention that magic is inherently evil. If he’s correct about magic, then he’s entirely correct to persecute druids, because they’re magic users, and therefore, inherently evil. And, again, the kid he wants to kill is going to grow up to be the greatest evil Camelot will ever face. Well, assuming they don’t deviate from the mythos too much, that is, and with this show, who can say how they’re going to swing it. In T.H. White’s take on the character, he’s basically Medieval Hitler.

But the Black Knight had a legitimate beef with Uther, as Uther sacrificed his sister for Arthur’s life.

Sure. Like I said, the Black Knight’s action is completely defensible. I’m just pointing out that it took Nimune three tries to come up with a plot against Uther that wasn’t morally depraved.

Also remember why Uther has gone all bloody hungry for sorcerers. It’s not because they were laying siege on Camelot, killing people indiscriminately, or harming anybody. The only reason ever stated was that the vendetta began after Ygraine died. And his cover story was that “magic stole her” but I don’t believe for a second he didn’t know what he was doing. I can discuss that point more after you’ve seen the rest of the show.

That’s true, and I expect that’s what the audience is supposed to assume, but looking at the actions of these people, I find it difficult to believe that they would be capable of living in civilized society without committing terrible acts. Because these are evil, evil people, regardless of whatever conflict they have with Uther. I mean, Nimune is a fucking serial killer. Uther may not have treated her fairly, but he’s not wrong about her essential nature: she is an evil, heartless monster with an active disregard for the lives of people around her.

Anyway, my point isn’t that Uther is, within the universe of the show, objectively correct about the nature of magic. Clearly, the audience is intended to sympathize with the magic users and recognize Uther as a tyrant. I’m just saying, at the point I’m at in the show, the show’s writers haven’t done a very good job of demonstrating that.

[levdrakon]

I’m just watching season one now. I’m up to ep 8 I think. My main observation so far is that Uther is a complete and utter moron. What a tool. Anthony Head plays it so straight, too. I laugh.

I guess they’re on series four now? Is it still good?

[John_DiFool]

I don’t think any of the principals can act, to make a long story short. I’ve tried to get into it, and the plots are serviceable, but the acting is so bloody wooden (I esp. dislike Gwen, and she has zero chemistry with Arthur too) that I can’t enjoy like I would like to.