# BCC suggests Jessica Lynch story greatly exaggerated, if not faked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548 "2003-05-15T21:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/81 "2003-05-20T11:03:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*I’ll join you there. Must be a sub-division of the Imperialist Oppressor’s Club. \*\* Damned right. When we send the troops in there’s none of this touchy-feely blanks nonsense. They cost more than normal ammo. **Yojimbo** my friend, there’s nothing wrong with calling attention to it after the fact. Hell, I like the fact that the press can call attention to such things. What’s bad is making some very unlikely claims, with very little proof, in an attempt to make this seem as a complete fabrication of events. The Americans decided there was a tactical reason (morale boost) to retrieve an injured soldier. They did it succesfully. They recorded it, to get the maximum morale boost. I just can’t see why this should be presented as such a cynical or misleading action. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/82 "2003-05-20T11:28:17Z")
\>\> Don’t see anything wrong with a bit of stage management to achieve propoganda/morale victories. Boosting morale is one thing, lying is another. I am not saying this is what happened but lying is totally unacceptable. Also, propaganda should be left to the Department of Propaganda. The Pentagon should just fight wars, not be drumming up support for those wars. God help us if the mmilitary are supposed to steer public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/83 "2003-05-20T12:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **Boosting morale is one thing, lying is another. I am not saying this is what happened but lying is totally unacceptable.** I think most people would agree with that statement. So far though there has not been any evidence of lying. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/84 "2003-05-20T15:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*Well, because you’re now in the range of bad action movie conspiracy. Clearly, they weren’t using the blank adapter. Therefore, the rifles would only fire one round before jamming. > > So they must have plugged the barrels. Which, interestingly, is exactly the part of the gun that, if I recall correctly, killed Brandon Lee, propelled by the gunpowder in the blank. Not to mention that plugged barrels are not part of standard military gear. Or Special Ops standard gear. Plus the guns would then be useless in case of things going wrong. Also, they’d still only fire one round. Flash-bang grenades would be the more logical choice, as they are standard issue. > > In short, you’re violating occams razor. Which is a good way to foul up a military operation. > > It’s more likely that either they fired in the air or only used flash-bangs. \*\* Well, except that in this case Mr Ockham’s Razor is chopping straw. I never said the special forces should improvise barrel plugs. The standard blank adapter with a single, simple, modification(a quick coat of paint) is all I ever suggested. Once my ignorance of “Flash Bangs” and their properties and use was cured I’m happy to abandon the idea that blanks were used at all. It is now clear that “Flash Bangs” make more sense and still fit the evidence. What I objected to, and what has motivated my posts beyond the first, is the manner in which this ignorance of military munitions and practices was addressed. A carbine firing blanks(especially since the descriptions of the manner in which M-class weapons are adapted to fire blanks pretty much rules out the possibility of accidental misfires) to serve as “warning shots” seemed a very elegant solution to the problem of how to “give the people a clear, unambigious message to get the heck out of the way.” Flash bangs, now that I know they exist, fit this problem better and don’t require crippling the offensive power of some of your force. Excellent, I’m glad to know such alternatives are available. What I still don’t understand is why it is somehow appropriate to ridicule someone who was genuinely attempting to understand the situation. Sure your more specific knowledge of the tools and practices give you insights which make my theory look “asinine” but simply sharing those insights, minus the scorn, would have been a more effective solution. I have never understood what would drive persecution of someone who makes a genuinely good-faith effort to understand a situation for their failure to grasp all the situation’s nuances on the first try. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/85 "2003-05-20T16:22:54Z")
Welcome to the Pit. But even though filleting you over open coals would have been appropriate in this forum, I did not attack the poster in my first address to you, I attacked the post, in the highest standard of GQ and other fora. > [@](#): > > And **Mtgman** , your lack of military experience or understanding is dramatically displayed by that post. That plan is asinine. You protect civilian lives by not shooting them. Flash Bangs subdue them quite nicely without bloodshed. Notice I did not call you stupid, I said it was clear you did not have an understanding of some aspect of knowledge that relatively few people do. I then said your plan was dumb. It is. Again, no personal persecution here. It is a dumb plan, that is a fact. I presented an alternative, more realistic scenario which accomplished the goal you set out, without sacrificing force protection. My fault was not spelling it out for those who may not be aware, which I tried to later address with the Flash Bang explanation. As for the rest, your command of the English language may not be complete, I do not know where you are, but I will not be teaching sentence structure, comprehension and interpretation today. You seriously think that was _persecution_? Damn. If I had said “What the fuck? You obviously didn’t wipe that idea off after you pulled it out of your ass because it still smells like shit! Any more suicidal mission orders, Schwartzkopf? Do I tell you how you should wipe the drool off your chin? No, I don’t, because I don’t fucking drool, you moron. So don’t you go popping off about shit you obviously have no clue about!” then **THAT** would be persecution. Grow a thicker skin. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/86 "2003-05-20T16:47:25Z")
Nitpick. You misrepresented my hypothetical “plan” by saying it including shooting civilians. Just so we’re clear, the “plan” you called asinine wasn’t mine, it was a straw man of your own creation. As for the rest, flies, honey, vinegar. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/87 "2003-05-20T17:15:48Z")
Reading Comprehension 101, Fucktard. “You protect civilian lives by not shooting them” does NOT mean I said your plan said to shoot civilians. It said a BETTER plan was to not shoot at all at civilians. Look it up. What IS asinine is > [@](#): > > …equipping a portion of the rescue forces with blanks…A fair number would have live ammo and would rotate to the front if resistance were encountered… . THAT is asinine. THAT was the big part your “absolutely frigging brilliant” plan. No straw here. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/88 "2003-05-20T17:53:59Z")
**UncleBill** , thanks for your insightful responses. Your scenario makes sense, it really does. What I don’t understand, though, is why CentCom wouldn’t give us a similar explanation: they seem to be avoiding the poignant questions rather than addressing them. Also, the issue of private Lynch’s amnesia is still rather suspect to me. But then, as stated before, the documentary was not about the Lynch matter alone. It was about CentCom and it’s tactics - which were quite interesting at times. If it’s on BBC World sometime soon, I recommend you check it out. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/89 "2003-05-20T18:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*You must be new here. After all, us long-time **december** -watchers can guess that, if faced with such a tactic, **december** will simply smear the contradictory blog as “propaganda from the extreme left,” then handwave it away. \*\* Note that while friend **rjung** is complaining about some hypothetical smearing, his post is itself an actual smear. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/90 "2003-05-20T18:10:37Z")
Not that I’m involved with your guys mini-debate, but **UncleBill** the tone of your initial response to **Mgtman** struck me as being condescending. For everyone who is critical of the U.S. shooting at the alleged ambulance that had Lynch in it the U.S. was unaware of what the Iraqi doctors were trying to do. From the Toronto Star link: > [@](#): > > “We carefully moved her out of intensive care and into an ambulance and began to drive to the Americans, who were just one kilometre away. But when the ambulance got within 300 metres, they began to shoot. There wasn’t even a chance to tell them ‘We have Jessica. Take her.’” The only thing the U.S. troops supposedly saw was an ambulance approaching a checkpoint and lord knows what they were supposed to think. Keystone Cops my ass. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/91 "2003-05-20T18:27:38Z")
Condescending, yes. Persecutorial, no. I’m with **Coldfire** 100% on wondering why CentCom and DoD refuses to address specific questions that don’t seem to address any security concerns. They did not correct the stories about bullet wounds and stab wounds, and their sequestering of the soldier is indeed curious. I do not have time to search, but I recall ambulances recently being used to transport explosives very specifically in Israel, and POSSIBLY in that region. If the ambulance was approaching the checkpoint and did not stop when directed, I would expect the soldiers/Marines to fire warning shots. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/92 "2003-05-20T18:43:58Z")
The careful reader will no doubt note that my original complaint about your attitude characterized it as “condescending”. It was after you started in with the attacks on my reading comprehension and literacy that I elevated it to persecution. Because I still can’t quite wrap my head around your insistence that the two statements I’m about to quote are identical. Nor can I imagine a rational person insisting that they are and any distinctions are the product of a failure on the part of the reader. > [@](#): > > That plan is asinine. You protect civilian lives by not shooting them. > [@](#): > > It is best to not fire your weapon AT ALL, even with blanks, unless there is a distinct enemy target. You can accomplish the goal of getting people down and out of your way with Flash Bangs and verbal and physical commands. In the practice of not shooting at civilians AT ALL, their lives are protected Your continued insistence that the fault lies completely on my shoulders for my inability to understand your brilliance is no doubt completely justified. I just need to grow a thicker skin. Tell you what, if you feel like punching me in the nose next time you stoop from your lofty seat to do me the great favor of eradicating some of my ignorance feel free to include the punch to the nose. Obviously this is your right and if I object to the punch in the nose then I should simply grow a tougher nose. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/93 "2003-05-20T18:58:36Z")
So… the weapons were loaded with bullets, presumably, but instead of firing into civilians, they used flash-bangs to disorient them. Yep, sounds standard operating procedure to me. Where’s the fakery? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/94 "2003-05-20T19:26:19Z")
Ah, yes, my friend, if we are ever to meet in a boxing ring, a specific place in which we are expected to exchange physical blows, prepare to feel my sting. Seeing as we are in the BBQ Pit, a specific place in which it is expected to exchange verbal blows, you may anticipate continued verbal putdowns for posting something ridiculous. Want nicer ignorance eradication? Stick to GQ. I am not nearly as snarky there. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/95 "2003-05-20T19:48:16Z")
Regarding the amnesia, she may well have experienced some very traumatic events which either caused actual amnesia, or which she simply does not wish to recount. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/96 "2003-05-20T19:51:07Z")
All I see here is perhaps a bit of input from PSYOPS in having the cameraman along. But for all I know, the use of a cameraman may be common for post OP review and training. Prior to the rescue, there was certainly a lot of wrong information making Jessica more heroic than what really occurred. Whether that information was put out by design or was simply due to the fog of war, I have no idea. JFTR, Jessica’s doctors have specifically said that Jessica does NOT have amnesia. Amnesia is the inability to recall memories. The doctors are saying that in Jessica’s case, the memories were never there in the first place due to shock, stress, or whatever. They have likened it to someone who has undergone surgery. There is not an inability to recall the operation, but rather the anesthesia prevents the laying down of memories during the surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/97 "2003-05-20T20:05:09Z")
I was under the impression that verbal blows were allowed in the BBQ pit, but that they weren’t obligatory. Your decision to be condescending in your first reply to me was not dictated by the nature of the forum nor can I discern any provocation which would have earned me such a response. It is perfectly possible to have a civil and polite discussion in the pit. You chose not to for reasons of your own. Blame it on the forum if you like, but I see hundreds of posts in the pit each day whose writers don’t feel obligated to talk down to those they reply to. Flies, honey, vinegar. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/98 "2003-05-20T20:29:30Z")
Well, I didn’t see any plugs on the muzzles in the video, and they are unmistakeable, and I cannot imagine any Special Forces soldier going into a combat situation with blanks in his weapon. It goes against everything they’ve been taught, and they just wouldn’t do it. Our own reporting was pretty good about mistakes that we made, such as shooting a bus full of women and children, so I’m not sure that the ambulance being fired on and forced to return is credible either. The idea of the soldier being returned in the midst of hostilities is quite frankly laughable, and I would consider the suggestion that they tried to do it, or were planning on doing it the following day to be an outright lie. What wounded soldiers or POWS were returned to us in the midst of the hostilities? I do not find this eyewitness report from “the Doctor” to be credible. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/99 "2003-05-20T20:47:10Z")
Here’s what a blank converter looks like: [http://www.iar-arms.com/blankammo-real-guns.htm](http://www.iar-arms.com/blankammo-real-guns.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548/100 "2003-05-20T21:18:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > I think most people would agree with that statement. So far though there has not been any evidence of lying. Not true. there is abundant evidence of lying (she was shot etc). The question is _who_ lied. Was it the Pentagon or the media. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcc-suggests-jessica-lynch-story-greatly-exaggerated-if-not-faked/175548.md?page=6)