# BCS Championship Game--ROLL TIDE **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 7, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371 "2013-01-07T18:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/141 "2013-01-09T19:36:10Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > That would be relevant if Alabama gave out four-year athletic scholarships. To my knowledge, the vast majority of schools don’t do this, but I haven’t made an in-depth study of the topic, so I could be wrong. No, “guaranteed” multi-year scholarships weren’t allowed until recently. However, it wa extremely rare, if not totally unheard of, for schools to cut athletes because of performance issues. Until recently. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/142 "2013-01-09T19:37:21Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yes, Ogre, arguing is difficult when you’re defending bad people. See Human Action’s post above. I’m not arguing because you’re literally throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/143 "2013-01-09T19:39:54Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Except that, under Saban, athletic graduation rates, academics, and tutoring are at an all-time high, and are among the best in the nation. Wow, that’s a substantially different response than the one you initially put up. There aren’t many major schools in the southeast that aren’t getting better as the population increases. I’m not sure how this is supposed to be a defense of a guy who cuts his players as though he were running an NFL team. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/144 "2013-01-09T19:41:39Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > No, “guaranteed” multi-year scholarships weren’t allowed until recently. However, it wa extremely rare, if not totally unheard of, for schools to cut athletes because of performance issues. Until recently. So you’re angry that athletes are being held to a high standard in accordance with the entire reason that they’re receiving a scholarship? Look, I’ll tell you something I don’t talk about very much: my first year of college, I made almost no friends, became incredibly depressed, let my grades slip, and lost my scholarship. Yes, it sucked. Yes, I was angry for a while. I missed the minimum GPA by two _hundredths_ of a percent. But it was an academic scholarship. It came with requirements and conditions. Why should athletes be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/145 "2013-01-09T19:43:00Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Wow, that’s a substantially different response than the one you initially put up. > > There aren’t many major schools in the southeast that aren’t getting better as the population increases. I’m not sure how this is supposed to be a defense of a guy who cuts his players as though he were running an NFL team. It may be a different aspect of the argument, but it’s not contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/146 "2013-01-09T19:44:40Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > See Human Action’s post above. I’m not arguing because you’re literally throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. What a load of shit. My criticisms of Alabama and Nick Saban have been consistent throughout this thread. You just can’t think of a good reason why your team is one of the only programs in the country that finds these actions acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/147 "2013-01-09T19:45:59Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > What a load of shit. My criticisms of Alabama and Nick Saban have been consistent throughout this thread. You just can’t think of a good reason why your team is one of the only programs in the country that finds these actions acceptable. Hell, not just acceptable, but the proper thing to do, really. Why do athletes get an exception when it comes to scholarships? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/148 "2013-01-09T19:47:07Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > So you’re angry that athletes are being held to a high standard in accordance with the entire reason that they’re receiving a scholarship? > > Look, I’ll tell you something I don’t talk about very much: my first year of college, I made almost no friends, became incredibly depressed, let my grades slip, and lost my scholarship. Yes, it sucked. Yes, I was angry for a while. I missed the minimum GPA by two _hundredths_ of a percent. But it was an academic scholarship. It came with requirements and conditions. Why should athletes be any different? Why do you think 99.9% of all Universities in the US disagree with this philosophy? Rather than embrace Saban’s philosophy, it has been almost universally condemned. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/149 "2013-01-09T19:50:55Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Hell, not just acceptable, but the proper thing to do, really. Why do athletes get an exception when it comes to scholarships? Because NCAA regulations make it extremely difficult for an athlete to succeed after leaving his initial school. This is particularly true for football players. That is why the practice will soon become very difficult to implement effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/150 "2013-01-09T19:51:41Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why do you think 99.9% of all Universities in the US disagree with this philosophy? Rather than embrace Saban’s philosophy, it has been almost universally condemned. Probably because they want their athletes to be able to slide through without very much academic oversight. That is not happening at Alabama. From everything I’ve heard and read, Saban’s academic standards are as high as his athletic standards. The football players are not allowed to skip classes or get low grades. He’s put an enormous tutoring infrastructure in place to make sure that they actually do their collegiate work as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/151 "2013-01-09T19:54:21Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Because NCAA regulations make it extremely difficult for an athlete to succeed after leaving his initial school. This is particularly true for football players. That is why the practice will soon become very difficult to implement effectively. It was pretty difficult for me to succeed after losing my scholarship. Took me about 8 years of working and attending night classes to finish. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/152 "2013-01-09T19:54:56Z")
Are you fucking kidding me? Alabama is the light in the wilderness? What a fucking joke. They cut players because they want to make room for better players, not for academic reasons. Try again. Academic failures have always been denied the opportunity to play sports. Your response literally makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/153 "2013-01-09T19:55:32Z")
For what little it’s worth I want to point out I specifically _didn’t_ go for all these potshots about the South. And Saban is a complete sleeze, but find me a major college football coach who isn’t. A couple of months ago Bret Bielema was complaining about SEC recruit-poaching and then Arkansas offered him a fat salary and guess what happened. And pretty much all the schools want to have the ability to treat their athletes like property- it’s in their financial best interest to do so: they want to be able to recruit more players than they need, keep the competition as fierce as possible, get rid of players they don’t want (because the old coach liked them and the new one doesn’t, for example) and maintain as much power as they can in that relationship. That’s not specific to Saban, who may or may not be more skilled at manipulating this system - I have no idea and Lane Kiffin is always breaking new (un)ethical ground in this regard - but it is a profoundly crappy system. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/154 "2013-01-09T19:55:58Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Are you fucking kidding me? Alabama is the light in the wilderness? What a fucking joke. They cut players because they want to make room for better players, not for academic reasons. Try again. It’s not an either/or situation. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/155 "2013-01-09T19:58:11Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > It’s not an either/or situation. The players that Saban cut to make room for more players on his roster were not academic casualties. That is a fact. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/156 "2013-01-09T20:08:20Z")
> [@Labrador Deceiver](#): > > Why do you think 99.9% of all Universities in the US disagree with this philosophy? Rather than embrace Saban’s philosophy, it has been almost universally condemned. If you read the NCAA statement I linked to, you’ll see that: > [@](#): > > Of 330 institutions voting, 62.12 percent voted to override the legislation. A 62.5 percent majority of those voting was required to override legislation. More than 90 percent of Division I institutions voted. 62.5% of Division I schools voted _not_ to allow multiyear scholarships. Are you certain that 99.9% of schools want to ensure all their players get four-year scholarships? > [@Marley23](#): > > For what little it’s worth I want to point out I specifically didn’t go for all these potshots about the South. Noted, at least by me, and appreciated. > [@Marley23](#): > > And Saban is a complete sleeze, but find me a major college football coach who isn’t. A couple of months ago Bret Bielema was complaining about SEC recruit-poaching and then Arkansas offered him a fat salary and guess what happened. And pretty much all the schools want to have the ability to treat their athletes like property- it’s in their financial best interest to do so: they want to be able to recruit more players than they need, keep the competition as fierce as possible, get rid of players they don’t want (because the old coach liked them and the new one doesn’t, for example) and maintain as much power as they can in that relationship. That’s not specific to Saban, who may or may not be more skilled at manipulating this system - I have no idea and Lane Kiffin is always breaking new (un)ethical ground in this regard - but it is a profoundly crappy system. This hits the mark. The things **Labrador Deceiver** is complaining about are problems with Division I football and the NCAA, not Alabama or the SEC. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/157 "2013-01-09T20:14:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you read the NCAA statement I linked to, you’ll see that: > > 62.5% of Division I schools voted _not_ to allow multiyear scholarships. Are you certain that 99.9% of schools want to ensure all their players get four-year scholarships? The reasons for opposing guaranteed 4-year scholarships are more complicated than “We want to be able to cut our players.” You can still do that, even if other schools don’t want to. For now. > [@](#): > > This hits the mark. The things **Labrador Deceiver** is complaining about are problems with Division I football and the NCAA, not Alabama or the SEC. I didn’t say it was an SEC problem. It’s an Alabama problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/158 "2013-01-09T20:16:24Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > The players that Saban cut to make room for more players on his roster were not academic casualties. That is a fact. Try again. Just so we can be on the same page, which players specifically are you talking about? You may have more valid information than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/159 "2013-01-09T20:20:59Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Just so we can be on the same page, which players specifically are you talking about? You may have more valid information than I do. I doubt you have any information, quite frankly. I’ll post the names when I get time. Should take about 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371/160 "2013-01-09T20:25:07Z")
Glenn Harbin Demetrius Goode Petey Smith Brandon Moore Corey Grant Keiwone Malone Robby Green Darrington Sentimore Kerry Murphy Kendall Kelly Wes Neighbors Terry Grant Travis Sikes Rod Woodson Star Jackson Taylor Pharr Milton Talbert Darius McKeller Ronnie Carswell Wilson Love The scholarship limit at any given time is 85. Alabama has signed 138 players in the past 5 years. That’s the equivalent of one extra recruiting class. That’s insane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bcs-championship-game-roll-tide/646371.md?page=9)