# Be Careful Norway!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 24, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182 "2011-07-24T16:07:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/1 "2011-07-24T16:07:35Z")
The massacre in Norway was a terrible, terrible, terrrible event. But it would be a shame if the Norwegians allowed this one horrific act to set them down an over-reactive path resulting in limited access to government buildings, metal detectors everywhere, security checkpoints almost everytime you turn around, a general limitation on freedom of movement, etc. They should put this event behind them and go on about their lives as they did before. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/2 "2011-07-24T16:19:54Z")
I’m not certain the Norwegian Govt will read your post and take action on it. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/3 "2011-07-24T16:31:01Z")
> [@Ronald\_C.Semone](#): > > They should put this event behind them and go on about their lives as they did before. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. The government is going to be subject to screams to “do something.” To do nothing will be political disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/4 "2011-07-24T18:02:48Z")
Sweden is still a remarkably open society after Olof Palme’s assassination, so it’s not inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/5 "2011-07-24T18:21:18Z")
PM Stoltenberg said Norway would respond with “more democracy, more openness, more humanity.” ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/6 "2011-07-24T18:53:41Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. The government is going to be subject to screams to “do something.” To do nothing will be political disaster. [/QUOTE] There have been no such screams, and I don’t foresee any. Besides, what could we tell our government that is stronger than the original attack? It was the children and young members of the main party in government who were killed at Utøya, and the colleagues and friends of the people in government who were killed in the Oslo bomb. Besides, do what exactly? More gun control? We are among the most gun-controlled nations in the world - the guns he had, except possibly the handgun, were already illegal. Besides, one of his main weapons was five tons of fertilizer - what are we going to do, implement fertilizer control? Metal detectors? Would not have stopped the bomb, and is pointless on Utøya - besides, AUF wants no changes at Utøya, and the elected representatives among the teenagers (they elect their own) stated this while still bleeding, while receiving treatment. Limited access to government buildings? The buildings are all historical, and cannot be modified. Possibly better ID checking routines, but there were calls for those already. And again, nothing like that would have stopped this man - his main targets were the kids at Utøya, he could have blown up anything. Security checkpoints? Would not have stopped him - it might have modified his methods, but he spent years planning this. He would have found a way. There is nothing we can do, except pick up the broken pieces and carry on as before. Our grandparents - my grandparents - did it before us. We can do so now. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/7 "2011-07-25T07:37:14Z")
I just read [this article](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html). Very relevant to the OP, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/8 "2011-07-25T11:28:11Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I just read [this article](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html). Very relevant to the OP, I think. > [@](#): > > Even more interesting, perhaps, there hasn’t even been a public outcry for more security for the politicians to address. No opposition politicians, not even social media voices, have demanded more public security or pointed to the lack thereof as potential discouragements to the attacks. There has been no visible debate on gun laws or even on the sale of fertilizer, used by the attacker. Neither has there been calls for stricter legal punishment, Norway has 21 years as its maximum prison sentence. The limits to rhetoric in public debates have not been addressed. Norwegian terrorism expert Tore Bjørgo explained in an interview that more extensive computer surveillance could possibly have detected the attacker’s plans. But quickly added: “Although this is obviously a level of monitoring the Norwegian people would not agree to.” If this attitude persists, I say, “Bravo, Norway!” ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/9 "2011-07-25T16:54:12Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > PM Stoltenberg said Norway would respond with “more democracy, more openness, more humanity.” This is almost unspeakably beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/10 "2011-07-25T17:03:07Z")
It was one solo nutbar. Nutbars exist in every country, religion and culture. This was an horrific tragedy, but unfortunately things like this can happen anywhere. If I’m not mistaken, Norway – like most countries – has rules on huge fertilizer purchases. I believe something was somehow circumvented in this case, and probably won’t be easily circumvented again. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/11 "2011-07-25T17:04:27Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > There is nothing we can do, except pick up the broken pieces and carry on as before. Our grandparents - my grandparents - did it before us. We can do so now. Can we then agree that if someone wants to hurt you, if someone wants to perform terrorist attack of this nature they will do it no matter what? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/12 "2011-07-25T18:06:52Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, Norway – like most countries – has rules on huge fertilizer purchases. I believe something was somehow circumvented in this case, and probably won’t be easily circumvented again. He started a farm so the puchase of large quantities of fertilizer wouldn’t be suspicious. This is a dedicated fanatic who planned this escapade for many years and, while he was certainly a nutjob, was also a meticulous planner. Considering what he (apparently) set out to do, he raised no red flags and made few errors. Hard to see how he could have been uncovered or prevented. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/13 "2011-07-25T18:20:40Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > This is a dedicated fanatic who planned this escapade for many years and, while he was certainly a nutjob, was also a meticulous planner… Apparently, he picked out the bottle of wine he wanted to drink right before he started his attack several years ago, and had even selected the two specific hookers (he called them “model-whores”) that he wanted to fuck the night before he embarked on his planned massacre several months in advance as well. (“Ingrid’s not working tonight, sorry.”) This guy sounds like he would be a real joy to go on a spontaneous road-trip with… ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/14 "2011-07-25T22:17:11Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > PM Stoltenberg said Norway would respond with “more democracy, more openness, more humanity.” [However:](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0725/Norwegians-rally-around-victims-as-Breivik-appears-in-court/(page)/2) > [@](#): > > There is no doubt that this will change security measures,” said Iver Neumann, a research fellow at the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs, “but the question is how much.” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/15 "2011-07-25T22:37:44Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Can we then agree that if someone wants to hurt you, if someone wants to perform terrorist attack of this nature they will do it no matter what? I’m sure it’s easy to come to that conclusion after some armchair ruminations, but if you look into it, you’d find it’s not true. Plots are foiled all the time. Terrorists try and fail a lot. Frequently plans are scuttled when the terrorist realizes they’re too hard to pull off successfully. In Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, attacks against US forces drop off dramatically in days when it rains. All it takes is a little precipitation for these hardcore" terrorists to call it quits! No, they won’t do it “no matter what”. Terrorists can be dissuaded in a number of ways. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/16 "2011-07-25T23:52:37Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > No, they won’t do it “no matter what”. Terrorists can be dissuaded in a number of ways. Perhaps the Norwegians do not want the sacrifices to liberty and freedom that come with those “ways”. I will let them sort themselves, but as an example I traveled to the US shortly after 9/11 and to Madrid shortly after 3/11. I can’t say that the Spaniards (who had been living with terrorism since before I was born) had implemented any significant changes in _visible_ security, as opposed to the US. FTR, I am not criticizing the US. It was your right to do so, just clarifying that different countries might react differently to similar problems. ETA: BTW, I did not consider the possibility that you are just talking about better police investigation as opposed to visible measures. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/17 "2011-07-26T01:23:22Z")
If this guy is convicted, under Norwegian law the longest incarceration he can receive is 21 years. Cite - every radio and TV newscast heard today. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/18 "2011-07-26T01:32:41Z")
As I understand it, the longest prison sentence AS A PUNISHMENT that Norway has is indeed 21 years, but after that time is up, they can keep the prisoner locked up indefinitely after that, if he is believed to be a threat to himself or others—Apparently after that point, he is no longer being punished for his past crimes, he is being prevented from committing any new crimes in the future. In other words, they have a working equivalent of a “Life Without Parole” even if they don’t come out and put it in those words. This guy will likely never see freedom again, so I guess his bottle of wine and the memories of the two whores he fucked the night before he murdered 60 or 70 innocent children will have hold him for a while… ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/19 "2011-07-26T09:34:36Z")
He can also be tried for “crimes against humanity” with a maximum penalty of 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-careful-norway/590182/20 "2011-07-26T14:43:45Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > PM Stoltenberg said Norway would respond with “more democracy, more openness, more humanity.” … can Spanish citizens living in Norway vote? I wanna vote for people like that. > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > …Madrid shortly after 3/11. I can’t say that the Spaniards (who had been living with terrorism since before I was born) had implemented any significant changes in _visible_ security, as opposed to the US. In true “close the barn after the horses escaped” fashion, we now have metal detectors for the long distance lines in some stations, including Atocha. That’s been about it, the cops manning the metal detectors there and in airports are as laid-back about cans of asparagus and paté as they’ve always been.