# Be honest: would you be more forgiving of Hubbard's work if Scientology didn't exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 16, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214 "2006-01-16T13:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/21 "2006-01-16T20:39:42Z")
I enjoyed the _Mission Earth_ series – I read the entire thing. _Battlefield Earth_, too. I think I liked it in the same way that some people like “wrestling” or the worst sort of “reality” television, though At the time, I thought Scientology was hysterical. I’m sure I wouldn’t have bothered with any of it if it weren’t for his ridiculous, amphetamine-warped allegory. “‘Psychlos!’ Brilliant!” So, no. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/22 "2006-01-16T20:54:36Z")
Add me to the list of people who read, or attempted to read, the _Mission Earth_ series prior to having any knowledge of volcanos or clams, and giving up in frustration (midway through book two, in my case). ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/23 "2006-01-16T22:14:16Z")
I made it through at least book 3 of Mission Earth. My only excuse is that I read a _lot_ of crap as a teenager because I read a _lot_ of genre fiction in general. Also I had a very hard time putting down anything I started. That’s one of the few series I ever gave up on at the time. I have gotten wiser with years, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Catfood\_Purrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Catfood\_Purrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catfood_Purrito)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/24 "2006-01-16T22:17:25Z")
I also started the Mission Earth series when I was younger. My dad said to me, “here, read this, it’s hilarious.” I don’t think I got all the way through the first book. ---
**Author:** ![Catfood\_Purrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Catfood\_Purrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catfood_Purrito)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/25 "2006-01-16T22:19:19Z")
Oh yeah, and I hadn’t even heard of L. Ron Hubbard before that, let alone Scientology. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/26 "2006-01-16T23:09:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Well, would you? > > \ Naw. I didn’t even know about Scientology when I first read his stuff. I just didn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/27 "2006-01-16T23:16:07Z")
I’ve not read most of Hubbard’s output. I read the first…IIRC, 6 books of Mission Earth. This was after I’d heard of Scientology, but before I knew any details other than ‘it’s a religion started by a science fiction writer, alegedly on a bet’. The first 3 books were fairly entertaining despite its badness (despite, not because of - I was ignoring the stupidity, not laughing at it). His biases are pretty damn obvious (Although, still more subtle than ‘Psychlo’), but the eye-rolling is minimal early on. As of book 4, it left ‘entertaining despite the badness’ skipped right over ‘entertaining because of its badness’, and right into ‘this isn’t entertaining, it’s just bad’, but I kept on, because I wanted to see how it ended… I got through book 6, and started on book 7, and kind of…petered out. I didn’t want to know how it ended badly enough for that. I think I might have gotten through one chapter of book 7 before bringing it back to the library and getting something that was entertaining to read. ---
**Author:** ![Serket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Serket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serket)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/28 "2006-01-16T23:20:21Z")
I thought the “Battlefield Earth” movie was really stupid and I had no idea it was based on Hubbard’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/29 "2006-01-16T23:41:53Z")
I read the _Mission: Earth_ series in it’s entirety in HARDCOVER(!) before I knew about $cientiology. I had heard of Dianetics, but only from the TV commercials. Despite the fact that each volume was pretty much a rehash of the previous ones, I was determined to finish. The only interesting thing I remember was the audio/video implants that allowed the one alien to spy on the other alien. When I found about Mr. Hubbard’s “religion”, I destroyed the books (and I never like to destroy books regardless of their content). ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/30 "2006-01-17T00:54:54Z")
Hubbard was a natural storyteller who, unfortunately, also happened to be a lousy writer; there’s actually some pretty entertaining notions submerged in all the awful prose. Reading Hubbard is kind of like reading Lovecraft’s lesser works in that you need to embrace the good bits while letting go of the bad parts. There are a few of his books that I genuinely like and will re-read every so often: The _Ole Doc Methusela_ stories, _Slaves of Sleep_, and _Typewriter in the Sky_. But if you want to see a really painful example of how he went downhill after getting a hardon for psychiatrists, read _Slaves of Sleep_ followed by _Masters of Sleep_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/31 "2006-01-17T01:12:26Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I think some of the posters have things backward. Hubbard was a well-regarded and much-reprinted writer _until he came up with Scientology_. Just a tiny quibble. Hubbard was indeed well regarded, but I’m not sure he was much reprinted. There are only two entries for him in the SF story index, covering anthologies from 1950 - 1968. It’s quite possible because it was difficult to get rights, or that editor’s didn’t want to get into a hassle about the rights. It might also be that his stuff, as you say, was competent but not that good. Hubbard was maybe the most prolific writer in Unknown, and was often in Astounding, both of which were the best markets in the forties. Final Blackout was considered very significant. There is no getting around that he wrote for money, not art, though. The reports of those who read his later work makes my miniscule desire to read them diminish even further. Did he actually write them, (out of boredom?) or did he get a lackey to do it? The Ole Doc Methusaleh stories got reprinted by Don Wollheim. They struck me as a bit fascist, even if I’m not sure I agree Final Blackout is. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/32 "2006-01-17T01:56:14Z")
Hubbard’s pulp-writer background got the best of him. There’ one instance in his military career ht actualy makes me feel sorry for him. He was commanding the PC-815 in the Pacific and became convinced that he contacted two Japanese subs. His actions are reported at this website: [http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/warhero/battle.htm](http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/warhero/battle.htm) > [@](#): > > Hubbard’s subsequent account of the action was set down in a secret Action Report (DOCUMENT A) addressed to the Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet. It was couched in distinctly unmilitary language - reading more like one of Hubbard’s pulp fiction stories - for which he was later reproved by the Commander Northwest Sea Frontier. > > Proceeding southward just inside the steamer track an echo-ranging contact was made by the soundman then on duty . . . The Commanding Officer had the conn and immediately slowed all engines to ahead one third to better echo-ranging conditions, and placed the contact dead ahead, 500 yards away. > > The first contact was very good. The target was moving left and away. The bearing was clear. The night was moonlit and the sea was flat calm . . . The USS PC-815 closed in to 360 yards, meanwhile sounding general quarters . . . Contact was regained at 800 yards and was held on the starboard beam while further investigation was made. Screws were present and distinct as before. The bearing was still clear. Smoke signal identification was watched for closely and when none appeared it was concluded the target must not be a friendly submarine. All engines were brought up to speed 15 knots and the target was brought dead ahead . . . > > At this point, Hubbard’s military terseness slipped completely: > > The ship, sleepy and sceptical, had come to their guns swiftly and without error. No one, including the Commanding Officer, could readily credit the existence of an enemy submarine here on the steamer track and all soundmen, now on the bridge, were attempting to argue the echo-ranging equipment and chemical recorder out of such a fantastic idea . . . Hubbard, the guy who loved sailing, whoe father was in the Navy (and who tried o impress) had fand independent command. He mistakenly believed he’d contacted the enemy, something along the lines of the adventures he’d been imagining and writing al those years, and wrote it up along th same lines, only to be censured for bth the action and th report. That had to be a major blow. After a subsequent event where he shelled what he thought to be U.S. uninhabited islands for gunnery practice (but which turned out to be Mexican territory) he got into further hot water: > [@](#): > > One final consequence of this affair was a stinging Fitness Report on Hubbard submitted by Rear Admiral Braisted (DOCUMENT D). The Rear Admiral noted that he would “prefer not to have him” under his command and rated Hubbard “below average” overall. In his concluding remarks Braisted declared: > > Consider this officer lacking in the essential qualities of judgement, leadership and cooperation. He acts without forethought as to probable results. He is believed to have been sincere in his efforts to make his ship efficient and ready. Not considered qualified for command or promotion at this time. Recommend duty on a large vessel where he can be properly supervised. > (Source: L. Ron Hubbard fitness report, 29 May 1943-7 July 1943) All of this is interesting reading at [http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/warhero/contents.htm](http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/cos/warhero/contents.htm) . One thing that must have grated was that he was criticized for th style of his reports, although he had been a sucessful professional writer for some time. But he was shaped by his medium. It’s curious – if you read the business mnuals he wrote fr running Scientology (I ran cross some in a library) he’s all business. It’ very unlike the style of his fiction or his Scientology/Dianetics. Maybe the Navy pu th fear of God into him. ---
**Author:** ![SpectBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@SpectBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpectBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/33 "2006-01-17T02:53:09Z")
Something that I never understood. El Ron’s “Mission Earth” books remain on the bookseller’s shelves far longer than much better author’s works. For example books by James Blaylock, Tim Powers and Paul Park would come and go within 6 months, while Hubbard’s stuff would continue to stink up the bookshelves for years. Why? ---
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/34 "2006-01-17T03:09:13Z")
> [@SpectBrain](#): > > Something that I never understood. El Ron’s “Mission Earth” books remain on the bookseller’s shelves far longer than much better author’s works. For example books by James Blaylock, Tim Powers and Paul Park would come and go within 6 months, while Hubbard’s stuff would continue to stink up the bookshelves for years. Why? There have been rumors that Scientologists regularly buy up Hubbard’s books to keep them on the lists. Whether they’re true or not I can’t say. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/35 "2006-01-17T04:05:09Z")
There are reports of Hubbards books being delivered to stores with receipts from other chains still in them. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/36 "2006-01-17T04:16:38Z")
> [@ryobserver](#): > > There have been rumors that Scientologists regularly buy up Hubbard’s books to keep them on the lists. Whether they’re true or not I can’t say. Lots of rumors, of various types. Scientologists block buying thousands of books to pass out to the members. Scientologists being told to buy a dozen copies instead of just one. The minimal and most believable rumor is that members are encouraged to get a copy of any of Hubbard’s writings, and perhaps a few more to give out to prospects. This makes psychological sense - surely you would want to have any writing of your religion’s founder, and also be able to demonstrate to unbelievers his fine works. However, simple hype and the money to do extensive marketing no doubt work for Hubbard’s book as well as for any other crappily written book that makes the bestseller lists. And there are certainly no shortage of those. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/37 "2006-01-17T14:15:46Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > You don’t need a bias against Scientology to realize that having uneducated primitive humans flying millenia-old Harriers outshooting alien invaders (who earlier conquered the Earth in _nine minutes!_) is as implausible as having Michael Jackson star in a remake of “Sunset Boulevard.” This isn’t entirely new for the movie; in the book, the low-tech Humans actually discover, and learn to fly, fully fueled / armed / operational fighter jets. The movie’s twist is having the entire Earth conquered in nine minutes. IIRC, in the book, that applied only to the last Human defenders – cadets at the Air Force Academy. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/38 "2006-01-17T14:23:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Well, would you? > > I think I probably would; I’m quite a consumer of SF books and yet I’ve never quite been able to bring myself to read one of his, even when I see them on sale for pennies in a charity shop. Likewise the movie _Battlefield Earth_ - I watched it when it came to terrestrial TV, but I’m conscious that my conclusion that it is a pile of tripe is somewhat pre-ordained by my rather jaundiced view of Hubbard as founder of Scientology and Travolta as follower. > > I’m sure I’ve read/watched and forgiven bad SF in the past, but I can’t find it in my heart to do the same for Hubbard. How about you? His SF goes beyond bad, IMO, though I can’t say that I’ve sampled his complete works. I have read and enjoyed the winners of his Writers of the Future contests (published as anthologies). He thinks he’s a wonderful writer and storyteller, but he’s a complete hack, as others have said. He cranked out words, and it shows. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/39 "2006-01-17T15:20:36Z")
I never read any of Hubbard’s early work. I read Battlefield Earth in my teens, and remember almost nothing of it. However, from reading biographies of major SF figures of the time, my understanding is that Hubbard was a just-OK writer of pulp, who made a bigger splash in the community of writers than he should have largely because he traded on his reputation as a larger-than-life character. He gained the attention of other writers not because he was a great writer, but because he could regale them with stories of his own personal adventures which left them somewhat in awe. Remember, the SF giants of that era were, with the exception of a few like Heinlein, just geeks and just as likely to be star-struck by an adventurous rogue as would be your average comic book conventioneer. But he has had little, if any, impact on science fiction. If it weren’t for Dianetics, you’d probably have never heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214/40 "2006-01-17T16:29:21Z")
> [@ryobserver](#): > > There have been rumors that Scientologists regularly buy up Hubbard’s books to keep them on the lists. For what it’s worth: On my much-neglected movie review website (:(), I used to have a feature at the bottom of each review where readers could vote their opinion of the film in question, from loved-it to hated-it. The average number of responses was something like 50-75; I think I had a couple hundred for _Gladiator._ But within a week of my posting my _Battlefield Earth_ review, I had 25,000 loved-it votes, against the usual smatterings in the other categories. I’m presuming this is not 25,000 separate Elron drones visiting my site in a coordinated fashion. It’s more likely to be a Perl script or some other automated vote-casting applet, the work of one or two people, bombarding the site to skew the results. But it’s still an interesting insight into their methods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-honest-would-you-be-more-forgiving-of-hubbards-work-if-scientology-didnt-exist/340214.md?page=3)