# Be it Resolved: Marx was a loon with an axe to grind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482 "2010-07-21T16:52:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/21 "2010-07-21T18:04:54Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Matter of fact, I still don’t quite understand how the Russian revolution happened. It’s a common misconception that the Bolsheviks that started the Revolution. They didn’t – Lenin and co. were in exile in Switzerland at the time. It started out as a bread riot in St. Petersburg and ended with the Tsar being forced to abdicate (initially in favor of his younger brother, Michael, who refused the crown). [Alexander Kerensky](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kerensky) took over as head of a provisional government. Unfortunately, due to the war and all the different factions, said government wasn’t very stable and the Bolsheviks were able to come in and over throw it. (The Germans helped to smuggled Lenin and his cronies back in, hoping to disrupt Russia further, in order to destablelize things. Well, the plan certainly succeeded! ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/22 "2010-07-21T18:10:24Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > Lenin’s take on Marxism theorized that communism is only possible in an industrialized society (such as Germany at the time), but a revolution could not take place in such an industrialized society. As a result the workers’s revolution would have to take place in a pre-industrial society (such as Russia at the time), and from there be exported to the industrialized country through war, thus creating a truly communist society. Cites? I’ve got plenty of Lenin on my bookshelf and never seen him say anything close to this. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/23 "2010-07-21T18:13:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Finish that thought? Blah. I meant to cut out the “The”. While we could go on at length discussing how many is too many, you can never have a functional government with a huge class. You can mobilze people, but people en masse cannot govern; they must have representatives who effectively meet and alter the rules, and who themselves are subject to ground rules (of varying levels of formality). And history does not at all suggest that attempts by any social class to govern turn out very well, because they neccessarily kneecap other social classes and form an oligarchy, usually cutting out much of their own membership. > [@Olontzero](#): > > Stalinism was not the inevitable outcome. Stalin was not inevitable. Stalinism was. Stalin simply expanded the pre-existing concepts Lenin created, and they were slimmed down but continued under Stalin’s own successors. > [@](#): > > Well, I come from the point of view that Marx did had good ideas (Social security, 8 hour workdays, paid vacations and many other things we take from granted are directly or indirectly here because of Marx), but his biggest failure was to dismiss democracy IIRC. I however have to agree with his general point that societies evolve. Marx neither came up with the concepts, nor created the implementation, nor was he particularly known as a promoter of them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/24 "2010-07-21T18:52:25Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Marx neither came up with the concepts, nor created the implementation, nor was he particularly known as a promoter of them. IIRC that point came because thanks to Marx other nations and capitalists had to allow many reforms to get away from the Dickensian world Marx described. They did so to prevent the people from falling for the siren chants of the Marxists. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/25 "2010-07-21T19:14:10Z")
Summary: Marx and Jesus are practically the same person. Both correctly identified a bunch or problems. Both came up with solutions that wouldn’t work in practice. Both had their teachings perverted and their names used to screw people over and give power and money to a corrupt elite. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/26 "2010-07-21T19:34:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > IIRC that point came because thanks to Marx other nations and capitalists had to allow many reforms to get away from the Dickensian world Marx described. They did so to prevent the people from falling for the siren chants of the Marxists. That was certainly Bismarck’s intent, when he implemented various social-welfare programs in the German Empire. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/27 "2010-07-21T19:46:01Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Cites? I’ve got plenty of Lenin on my bookshelf and never seen him say anything close to this. I have the “advantage” of having studied Leninism and Marxism for the first 20 years of my life. Take a look at this document: [“Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism”](http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/index.htm). Lenin basically argues that a proletarian revolution is impossible in developed capitalist societies, so a less developed country is the place for the first revolution. Don’t get me wrong, Lenin was an idiot, and studying his writings should be prescribed as the cure for insomnia, but you did ask. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/28 "2010-07-21T19:56:35Z")
I think loon is a bit strong. Although I agree that he came up with the wrong solutions what he believed needs to be examined in the context of the industrial revolution and the abysmal conditions that the majority of the population in the UK (he believed the UK would be the first country to have a revolution) existed in. In his world a very tiny percentage of the population controlled all the political, economic and social power - and its very easy to assume that this is an unsustainable situation. Therefore the two options are revolution or reform, he argued that the Capitalists currently in control would not freely give away their power. Except with the growth of social democracy exactly that happened. The question is though, how much of the that occurred because of the threat of Communist revolution - the Bismarkian welfare state in Germany was specifically expanded to lure people away from from Communism. As for unscientific, I believe that he was the first to explicitly link political and economic development, his path went; Primitive Communal Slave Feudal Capitalist And then Communist And he analysed how these economic bases in effect created the political superstructures that surrounded them, think of how slavery affected Rome. In fact Marx was often very complementary about the “inventiveness” and “dedication” of capitalism and saw it as necessary stage in economic development. I believe that he saw Capitalism as being _inherently_ contradictory for a number reason which is why it wouldn’t survive, not just because he didn’t like it. Modern Marxists (Not that there are many pure Marxists left) still believe that Capitalism will fail under its own contradictions but argue that the truly Capitalist countries have been successful in pushing all these externalities onto other countries. however as more states are brought into the core they will generate their own externalities until eventually there is no where left to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/29 "2010-07-21T20:04:17Z")
Is it reasonable to assume that a scarcity based capitalist system is the “perfect system” and will not be replaced anytime in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/30 "2010-07-21T20:27:39Z")
I don’t know what you mean by “scarcity based”, other than the fact that since goods are not infinite, therefore people can’t have everything they want, and therefore goods are scarce, and therefore need to be allocated in some way among people. There are all sorts of ways that goods can be allocated, but pricing is an extremely effective method that allows for a great deal of information to be exchanged in a decentralized manner. Other schemes of allocation run into some pretty severe problems very quickly. There are ways to overcome the problems from a lack of price information, but for some reason they tend to boil down to threating to shoot people who complain. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/31 "2010-07-21T20:31:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Other schemes of allocation run into some pretty severe problems very quickly. Lets be honest - the pricing system runs into some pretty severe problems very quickly - people without the means to prchase necessities will die. Now, we have decided that this is a lesser problem than the problems of other methods of allocation, or, more accurately, we have decided it is an easier one to ameliorate (as well as simply ignore on the periphery), but lets not pretend the pricing system is not problem free. Any system of allocating scarce resources will have problems. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/32 "2010-07-21T21:00:52Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Is it reasonable to assume that a scarcity based capitalist system is the “perfect system” and will not be replaced anytime in the future? No; but it can be very highly imperfect and still last indefinitely. There are countless examples in history of unjust and inefficent socioeconomic systems enduring for centuries, even millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/33 "2010-07-21T21:30:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Lets be honest - the pricing system runs into some pretty severe problems very quickly - people without the means to prchase necessities will die. > > Now, we have decided that this is a lesser problem than the problems of other methods of allocation, or, more accurately, we have decided it is an easier one to ameliorate (as well as simply ignore on the periphery), but lets not pretend the pricing system is not problem free. > > Any system of allocating scarce resources will have problems. I guess that’s why the poor are dying of starvation all over America. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/34 "2010-07-21T21:41:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, according to one of my professors, Marx was kind of one of those smelly old kooks who hang out in the library and annoys everyone. He said that one big mistake is making Marx out to be this huge boogeyman. I hope you’re exaggerating when you suggest _this_ was the takeaway from a college-level discussion on Karl Marx. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/35 "2010-07-21T21:46:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I guess that’s why the poor are dying of starvation all over America. I thought death from starvation was almost non-existent in the US. Don’t you mean death caused by effects of malnutrition rather than starvation? I would have thought that even freezing to death, due to not affording housing, was more common than starvation, since food sources are so easily accessible (trash cans?) If I had to guess I would think that lack of access to proper medication and medical care was the largest direct cause of death from poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/36 "2010-07-21T22:14:58Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I guess that’s why the poor are dying of starvation all over America. _cough, cough_ TANF _ahem_ Now, a sophisticated non-Marxist (and I readily admit you may be just such a person) might point out that TANF is a variation on the capitalist theme, using as it does, private enterprises, the market mechanism, and tax-and-transfer (rather than nationalization of farming and central economic planning) to get food to needy families. Unfortunately, most of the people who inform us that “Marx had an axe to grind” tend to flit over (which is a nice way of saying “don’t have the capacity to recognize”) the distinction. And so the syllogism goes: Marx advocated a workers’ state to provide life’s necessities for the proletariat, Marx had an axe to grind and is discredited, therefore Section 8 vouchers are a communistic plot and must be stopped at once! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/37 "2010-07-21T22:36:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > [QUOTE=villa] > Any system of allocating scarce resources will have problems. I guess that’s why the poor are dying of starvation all over America. [/QUOTE] Food isn’t a scare resource here, so the effects aren’t that drastic. Although the effects are strong enough that poor American children are malnourished enough that the nutrition deficit between them and European children has become physically detectable in things like height and head size. However, medical care IS a scare resource, and people do die from the lack of it here that don’t die in more civilized countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/38 "2010-07-21T22:41:48Z")
> [@](#): > > The bourgeoisie will remember my carbuncles until their dying day.~~Karl Marx Socialist Author & Agitator, from a private letter, 1867 No, he was an ass, & a sore one, to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/39 "2010-07-21T23:14:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Food isn’t a scare resource here, so the effects aren’t that drastic. First of all, the poor really aren’t dying of starvation here in America, I guess I should have added the good ol rolleyes. But yes, food is a scarce resource, because there isn’t an infinite amount of it. There happens to be a lot of food, more than enough to keep people from starving to death, but food is still scarce because you have to pay money for it, and some kinds of food cost more, and other kinds cost less. The connection between “there’s plenty of food” and “food costs money” shouldn’t be too hard to explain. It’s when you can’t buy food for money that you get shortages of food. Adam Smith explicated this back in 1776. EVERY resource is a scarce resource, even air. Even resources that are abundant enough that you don’t have to pay for them are scarce, because there isn’t an infinite amount of it. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482/40 "2010-07-21T23:25:22Z")
Marx was a failed lawyer, turned economic historian. He made a lot of mistakes in his analysis, chiefly ignoring the role of markets. That said, I don’t think he could ever have anticipated the horrors that Lenin and Stalin brought to the world. Is Marxist theory dead? I’d say his conclusions have been mostly discredited-like those of Freud (any Freudians left?). To me, taking Marx seriously is like sticking to Newtonian physics, in the era of quantum mechanics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/be-it-resolved-marx-was-a-loon-with-an-axe-to-grind/547482.md?page=3)