# Beads for Manhattan Island **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418 "2002-05-16T18:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/21 "2012-09-04T19:14:01Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > “The chief’s wife wants strictly junk jewelry.” Stan Freburg, if I remember correctly. Man, this is where the real value of the SDMB shows its strength. Great thread. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/22 "2012-09-04T20:21:10Z")
> [@CC](#): > > Stan Freburg, if I remember correctly… You are correct sir! ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/23 "2012-09-05T01:08:33Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Is it true, per a (much) earlier post, that there is no fresh water on the island? I thought there was a river in the Bronx at one time. And of course the Hudson is fresh water as well, come to think of it. Well, The Bronx is not on the island, so that is beside the point. However, I do wonder how the early settlers could have managed if there were no fresh water on the island. I don’t think it can be true. The Hudson must surely be tidal and brackish around there. I do not think its waters are likely to be fresh enough for drinking until you get way upstream from Manhattan. The island is right in the river’s mouth, after all. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/24 "2012-09-05T02:04:59Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Not only that but the Indians probably thought the whole deal was laughable, I mean culturally to them the idea of land deeds was probably causing them to chuckle, they also had no idea how popular the idea of colonization would become. > > Imagine some guys from the other side of the world offer you hundreds of thousands of dollars for the right to the air over your house, are they kidding? LOL sure guys! These nutballs will probably get tried and go back home anyway. > Now centuries later you are called an idiot for selling the primest real estate where the great hover city is located for a pittance. Great analogy, IMHO. I’m going to use this when I teach this, if I may. And as for the Hudson…it is salt water down there, with a bit of fresh after, say, a week of heavy rains upstate. Brackish at least up to Albany, where it’s still tidal. However, there are/were a few freshwater springs on Manhattan. A detailed 1776 map on my wall shows a pond down near today’s City Hall labeled… “Fresh Water”! (it looks like “Frefh Water”). ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/25 "2012-09-05T09:20:35Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Great analogy, IMHO. I’m going to use this when I teach this, if I may. > > And as for the Hudson…it is salt water down there, with a bit of fresh after, say, a week of heavy rains upstate. Brackish at least up to Albany, where it’s still tidal. > > However, there are/were a few freshwater springs on Manhattan. A detailed 1776 map on my wall shows a pond down near today’s City Hall labeled… “Fresh Water”! (it looks like “Frefh Water”). Ah, the [long S.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) Language used to be way more fun. (Though harder to read.) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/26 "2012-09-05T09:39:21Z")
The estimate that the 60 Dutch guilders worth of things that Minuit traded to the Indians would now be worth $24 is wildly wrong. Something worth 60 Dutch guilders back then would now be worth several thousand American dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/27 "2012-09-05T10:24:08Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The estimate that the 60 Dutch guilders worth of things that Minuit traded to the Indians would now be worth $24 is wildly wrong. Something worth 60 Dutch guilders back then would now be worth several thousand American dollars. As with lots of things involving old money and inflation, it’s quite probable that the “$24” amount was true at some point in the past when $24 was a lot of money. But yeah, definitely not the case nowadays - just as people look at old ads for 5c bottles of Coca-Cola, failing to realise that equates to about $1 in modern currency. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/28 "2012-09-05T14:44:49Z")
Yeah, but it’s even more annoying in this case because it’s a value that’s been passed down through not just several years but several generations of textbooks. It’s been a long time since 60 Dutch guilders in Minuit’s time has been equal in inflation-adjusted value to $24 current U.S. dollars, probably well over a century. Despite this, history books kept giving the same dollar number throughout that time, never adjusting the value for inflation. So instead of people today thinking that the Indians were willing to take the value of a good used car (to pick a current item) for that land (which, as has been pointed out, they didn’t own anyway), people who hear the $24 figure think that the Indians were willing to take the value of a single inexpensive hardback book (to pick another current item). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/29 "2012-09-05T15:38:33Z")
So, what was 64 guilders in Dutch local purchasing value? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/30 "2012-09-05T16:08:35Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > “The chief’s wife wants strictly junk jewelry.” “None of that cash stuff.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/31 "2012-09-06T00:30:08Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The estimate that the 60 Dutch guilders worth of things that Minuit traded to the Indians would now be worth $24 is wildly wrong. Something worth 60 Dutch guilders back then would now be worth several thousand American dollars. According to this [historic dutch currency converter](http://magazine.dutchancestrycoach.com/converting-dutch-historic-currencies) > [@](#): > > 60 guilders in the year 1625 was for your ancestor equivalent to 3.2 monthly wages of an unskilled worker. This roughly corresponds to 7563.39 USD today. Seems like a correct price for an unused island. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/32 "2012-09-06T01:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > So, what was 64 guilders in Dutch local purchasing value? Approximately one island. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/33 "2012-09-06T01:43:57Z")
I had forgotten that there was a column by Cecil on this subject: > **[How much would the $24 paid for Manhattan be worth in today’s money?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341886/how-much-would-the-24-paid-for-manhattan-be-worth-in-today-s-money)** His calculations are that 60 Dutch guilders in 1626 would buy a pound and a half of silver. That much silver (as of 1991, when he wrote the column) would now be worth $72. However, he also makes the following calculations. The Louisiana Purchase in 1803, which was for $3 million, bought 23% of the current land of the U.S. He figures that the value of all the land in the U.S. in 1991 was $2.7 trillion. So the value of the land purchased in 1803 for $15 million was worth $618 billion in 1991. This means that the land increased in value by an average of 5.5% each year from 1803 to 1991 by going from $15 million to $618 billion. He says that the value of all the land (by itself, not including buildings or anything else) in Manhattan in 1991 was $11.75 billion. That means that the value of the land increased by an average of 5.3% each year from 1626 to 1991, if you assume the value went from $72 to $11.75 billion. So Minuit overpaid for the land. Yeah, this is all pretty arbitrary and full of off-the-wall guesses. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/34 "2012-09-06T03:08:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > According to this [historic dutch currency converter](http://magazine.dutchancestrycoach.com/converting-dutch-historic-currencies) > > Seems like a correct price for an unused island. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/35 "2012-09-06T03:44:47Z")
I wrote: \> . . . The Louisiana Purchase in 1803, which was for $3 million . . . I meant: \> . . . The Louisiana Purchase, which was for $15 million in 1803, . . . ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/36 "2012-09-06T03:58:51Z")
Sorry if this has been mentioned above and I missed it, but I once read – or did an old history prof mention it? – that the Indians involved in the deal were actually from another island and thought they were pulling a fast one on the Europeans. But I’ve never encountered that claim again. Has anyone else heard this? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/37 "2012-09-06T11:29:51Z")
Going back to the OP: DSORVIK, who has offered to sell you 100 beads that were supposedly part of the trade between Minuit and the Indians? Have you attempted to have this person arrested for fraud? Siam Sam, yes, it’s been mentioned in this thread. silenus wrote in one post, ‘IIRC, the deal was a total scam because the tribe that “sold” Manhattan didn’t “own” it. They only wintered there or some such. It was part of another bands regular stomping grounds.’ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/38 "2012-09-06T11:35:08Z")
This is a Zombie thread from 10 years ago, and the OP has a total history of 2 posts on this MB, both in this thread from that time period. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/39 "2012-09-06T11:40:13Z")
Thanks, John Mace. I had forgotten that this was a zombie thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418/40 "2012-09-06T11:48:25Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Thanks, John Mace. I had forgotten that this was a zombie thread. That’ll be 64 Dutch Guilders. Or Manhattan Island. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beads-for-manhattan-island/109418.md?page=3)